Have two guinea pigs that don't get along...

[bazookagoof]

Hello everyone!

Let me keep this brief, as I'm sure this is a familiar story- we have one cavy in the house, and I thought having a buddy for him would be good- I got another one from a shelter, and the two just don't get along. Put them together, and they chatter and try to mount each other. I have them in separate cages, and although the dynamic is not what I prefer, the thought of returning the second cavy back to the shelter is distressing.

I guess my real question is this: I've read that guinea pigs are happier with a buddy, but are they still happier with another cavy they don't like? Or are they better off alone?

I notice they watch each other through their cage bars, sometimes try to sniff each other and occasionally gnaw at the bars when the other one is near. They chatter their teeth sometimes, but not as much when they are in their cages. I hope maybe they'll get used to one another.

I have no issue taking care of them separately, if that's what it takes. (I also have a 9 year old girl who loves them both.)

(I should mention that the shelter has offered to have the second one on a trial period, and I can return him if I like... but I'm trying to think of what's best for the pets here.)

[Bean]

Hello and welcome to Wheekers!

Sorry to hear that you've tried to make your little buddy happy by getting him a pal and it hasn't worked out so smoothly. This is an excellent page on introductions - it might be exactly what you've been doing already, but perhaps there will be a tip or two to help things along. It might also help reassure you about what signs are normal and what indicates escalating aggression. Rumbling, mounting and a bit of chattering are actually pretty common during any intros and it's quite possible those behaviours will die down once they've got used to each other and worked out who's going to be the boss.

I've had great successes doing intros outside in a large run on the grass - it's a neutral space free of their scent and they're so busy chomping they forget to bother about the other one, and before they know it they're happily munching alongside one another! It rarely works just putting them together somewhere one of them feels they have a claim to.

The other main thing with boys is space - they really do need that bit extra so they can have a bit of space to themselves.

All that said, I did all of the above and the tips on that page but had two brothers who got along well until puberty hit. After that, although they didn't fight as such, there was a real tension between them that didn't go away. I had them both neutered and they are now living very happily with wives - it's really reminded me what a massive difference there is between pigs that coexist and pigs that are truly bonded. Having company through a divide - where they can see, smell and hear another of their kind - is generally better than being alone, unless the presence of the other causes stress or agitation even through bars.

I'd definitely persevere for now as their reactions don't sound too uncommon or serious. If there are genuine signs that they're not going to bond, then have another chat to the rescue - some offer a bonding service where they introduce the pigs and watch for signs of whether it's a good match. Maybe they will help you find a really good match for you lad although of course you're already very fond of the boy you've brought home, so it's something you'll have to weigh up.

Good luck and keep us posted with how you get on.

[jolovespiggies]

This is something we have all experienced love but as Bean says, there is a great page on Introductions. There is nothing I have to add to the brilliant post she has written above. Yes, please do keep us updated.

Hugs
Jo xx

[bazookagoof]

Jul 3, 2015 9:36:22 GMT Bean said:

I've had great successes doing intros outside in a large run on the grass - it's a neutral space free of their scent and they're so busy chomping they forget to bother about the other one, and before they know it they're happily munching alongside one another! It rarely works just putting them together somewhere one of them feels they have a claim to.

Bean, thanks for the tip and quick reply!

I will have to try that outside; so far I have been able to distract them inside the house with food, but the peace doesn't last long...


Don't be fooled by them!    They were munching contentedly until they each tried to snag the other's treats away, then they started to chatter and rear up again. I put them back before they started to rumble, because guinea pigs throwing down can be uglier than any street fight I've ever seen. 

[3piggles]

Your piggies are gorgeous If they are boys, I would definitely get them as much space as possible. No store-bought cage is big enough for two pigs, much less two boys. Just like people, pigs like to spend time together, get off by themselves, do speed running we call zoomies, run obstacle courses, and lots of other things that require space. If you have store-bought cages, try blocking off a large space in a corner or where ever it's convenient for you to leave the space undisturbed for a few hours, and let the boys out in that. They need exercise, and they love it.

I totally understand not being able to take back the second pig. Pigs are prey animals, and take a while to adapt to a new environment or habitat. If you put the two boys together as soon as you brought the second boy home, he had no time to adjust, and your first boy had no time to adjust to his known habitat suddenly having a second piggy in it. Sometimes, if intros get off to a rough start, and the boys already have each others scent, it helps to give them a buddy bath. Just put both boys in the bathtub or kitchen sink with enough water to cover their legs, about an inch. Give them both a good bath, so they smell the same. Clean the cage you plan to use of all of the scent, even the houses, food dishes and water bottles/spouts, so it's basically brand new. Then try the boys together in the totally scent-free cage.

Pigs are very hierarchical, so there will be mounting and rumblestrutting, chasing and even some nipping, as the boss pig establishes his dominance. It looks mean to us, but it's how they do it, and they seem to understand and accept the process. The general rule of thumb is to let them work it out unless one or both draw blood, or one is being bullied into becoming a nervous wreck, or not getting sufficient food or water.

Good luck, and I hope you can get the boys together. If not, as long as they can see and talk to each other, they're not alone.

I forgot to ask if you know how old the boys are? Between 2/3 and 10/12 months old, they are in puberty. Think terrible 2s. Once they are out of puberty, is often easier to bond them going through the process listed above.

[bazookagoof]

Jul 3, 2015 21:31:41 GMT 3piggles said:

I forgot to ask if you know how old the boys are? Between 2/3 and 10/12 months old, they are in puberty. Think terrible 2s. Once they are out of puberty, is often easier to bond them going through the process listed above.

Oscar is about a year and a half, give or take a month, and Deo's exact age is unknown, as we got him from a shelter. I think he must be a few years old, as he doesn't popcorn at all. Oscar still pops in the air randomly and turns his pig-igloo (pigloo) upside down. He has lots of energy!

I should mention that technically, they are my daughter's pets... but as she's only 9, I can't expect her to assume full responsibility. Also, I have a soft spot for animals, so both piggies are being watched over by me, just in case.  (I feel more secure knowing I've given them fresh water before I leave for work, for example- I can't rely on my daughter to remember when she rolls out of bed for school.)

[jolovespiggies]

I agree love, when they do fight it is horrid, the same with bunnies. When they really go for it it is quite distressing. Your piggies are adorable. I wish there were more mums like you sweetie, often the care of a pet is left to a child and ends up being neglected.

Hugs
JO cc

[3piggles]

Their ages are well passed puberty, so that's not the problem. That makes me think space is the problem. What do you have for their homes?

[bazookagoof]

Jul 5, 2015 20:21:56 GMT 3piggles said:

Their ages are well passed puberty, so that's not the problem. That makes me think space is the problem. What do you have for their homes?

They each have their own cage, roughly measuring about 2 feet by 3 feet (per cage) and I'm in the process of building a fenced-in area for them to graze and frolic in. (My yard is large and already fenced in, but I need a smaller setup to be able to wrangle both piggies.)

I set the two cages right next to each other so they can see each other, and sometimes they stare at each other and don't make a sound, or they both chatter their teeth.

A small update: I did manage to bring them both outside to see if they could bond, but they stayed away from each other and grazed. Then, Oscar leaped into Deo's cage in a furry blur. While I was trying to get him out of the wrong cage, Deo made a break for it and scurried towards the bushes. I was able to scoop him up and get both of them in their proper homes, but I realized I should build a smaller area to contain them.

Of course, my daughter would be more than willing to help, but currently she's visiting relatives out of the country for two weeks, so I'm handling this situation on my own for a little while.

[3piggles]

This is an excellent guide to cavy cage sizes, though for two boars, I recommend going up one pig on the size chart: www.guineapigcages.com/ 2x3' is 6 sq. ft. A minumum cage size for one pig is recommended at 8 sq. ft, and that cage should have different levels such as shown in the C&C cage pictures on this site. A loft is a great way to add space. A house with a flat top the pig can sit on is also a good way to add space. I recommend at least a 3 pig cage for 2 boars, and prefer a 4 pig cage for 2 boars. That would be either a 13.3 or 16 sq ft cage, as each grid is 14 inches square. This page shows some great cage design options that incorporate different levels with lofts and ramps. If you keep the loft at 6 inches off the cage floor, no ramp is needed. Pigs can easily jump on an off a loft at that height.

We also have a Housing section in our Wheekerpedia section. Feel free to look at some of the cages members have had in the past. There are no absolute rules to the right cage, just one that fits your space and their needs, as well as possible.

I have a carrier for my pigs, and never took them outside to graze without putting them in the carrier in the cage, and letting them out of the carrier in the play pen. We have a really large, wide open public lawn area between the condos, and if they had gotten out, I never would have found them. Piggies are super fast! Glad you got everyone back without too much trouble. So nice to have a fenced in yard

You currently keep them in separate cages. Each cage has the scent of one pig, so is his territory. Putting the cages in the open area just puts two territories in with the two pigs. Try leaving the cages out of the fenced area, and putting in some toys such as tubes they can play through, towels draped over the side for the same game, paper bags with an opening cut in the sealed end, and cardboard boxes. Always make sure the toys have a back door, so one pig can't trap the other inside and cause problems. Let them both get their scent on everything, so the area is their territory, not divided by pig. See how that goes. If it seems to go well, then the buddy bath and one, large area for them both might also work. Good work

[jolovespiggies]

I hope it all works out in the end hunny, the teeth chattering is something which will usually happen when two boars see each other.

Hugs
JO xx

[bazookagoof]

3Piggles, thanks for the suggestions- I have the area ready, but I need to secure some toys for them. I can get boxes and a few things from work in a few days.



Right now though, they don't seem too interested in frolicking around. They just eat and eat and eat!

It seems to be taking longer for them to get mad at each other. Many minutes went by before Deo mounted Oscar, who shrugged him off with a look of disgust. (It all went downhill from there.)

[3piggles]

Love the size of the grazing and living area for them. Don't forget that they are prey animals, and you do have a lot of predators around, from raptors who could carry them off, to cats and other predators. You may have just left out the cover for the sake of the picture, but if not, at least put a light weight cloth over a good part of the pen, so they can escape the sun and exposure to predators. They will need some items throughout the grazing area, so they can scoot in for protection, if frightened. Cardboard boxes are great for that

[jolovespiggies]

That is a fantastic house hunny, what a lot of lovely space and grass for them. piggles is right though, you do need a cover if you don't already have one.

Hugs
Jo xx

[bazookagoof]

I'll look into some kind of cover, maybe a beach umbrella or something. The whole setup needs to be taken down periodically so I can mow my lawn, so I don't want to create something that's too elaborate.

In any case, right now the only time I can bring them outside is in the evening, when the sun starts to set. Everything is cool and the guys won't be too hot, as the sun is leaving.

Oh, and also, I don't leave them by themselves out there- I usually am in the play area with them, to make sure they don't get too rough with each other. Oscar can sometimes squeeze under the fence, so I need to keep a close eye on him!

They still don't seem to want to frolic. They just sit there and eat grass and get in each others' way. It's kinda like having two heroin junkies sitting in a room full of heroin.

[Bean]

Gorgeous pictures and really glad to hear that the grassy introductions are going a bit better! They make me laugh with the frantic way they chomp fresh grass - it's really quite manic, like they think they might be picked up at any second so need to make the most of it.

[jolovespiggies]

They are regular little chompers anyway, I do think guinea piggies are greedy little animals LOL!!

Hugs
Jo xx

[bazookagoof]

They got their buddy bath- Deo took it in stride, while Oscar flipped out and kept jumping out of the little basin my daughter had set up. However, when it was all over they snuggled up to each other, confusedly sniffing each other and not finding a different scent.



Their fur is so silky after a bath, I think maybe they ought to be bathed more often! Deo didn't seem to mind, he just stood there when we poured warm water on his back. Oscar was not as accomodating. I tried to get video, but it didn't quite work out.

[Bean]

Glad Deo stayed calm even with Oscar freaking out - often when you get one who flips, they can set the others off too! Bathing definitely isn't in the Top 100 experiences for many pigs, but glad it's helped with the boys' bonding.

[3piggles]

Aw, poor things. I remember the first bath I gave my first boys. Dallas stood in the water looking miserable. Zippy put a finger in the water and ran up my arm wheeking bloody murder, lol He never did like water, though of all my guinea pigs, he hated it the most. My Momma pig used to swim in the bathtub. I put in just enough water for her to be able to swim without her feet hitting bottom, and islands where the pigs could set just in the water enough to get their undercarriages wet. She even swam under the water flowing out of the faucet to fill the tub.

Buddy baths, as these intro baths are called, is akin to boot camp. Put them through a mutually bad situation, remove all scent of individuality, and they stand a good chance of bonding.

Pigs don't need regular baths. Save bathing (with shampoo, etc.) for extremes of dirtyness, which are rare in healthy pigs. Don't bathe them when they are sick, which is also when they tend to stop their regular hygiene. When ill, they don't need any extra challenges to their systems, and they can get a chill really easily.

There is a place in the UK called Gorgeous Guineas. Americans pay an exchange rate of about 1.3 times the regular price, but she makes skin and hair products specifically designed for guinea pigs, right Ph, right level of natural scent to not overwhelm them the way store shampoos do, etc. It's worth buying a bottle of basic shampoo, and just having it on hand. I've had mine for quite a while, as I only do butt dunks and undercarriage washes when needed. shop.gorgeousguineas.com/

Older and sick pigs often get dirty butts, as they just don't get out of their own way as well as they used to. Just don't a quick wash in the sink, getting them cleaned up once or twice a week even, helps keep them healthy, and doesn't get them completely wet and risking a chill. That's what I call a butt dunk. Definitely towel dry the as much as possible before letting them air dry. Same with the undercarriage wash, as that's the part of the pig that comes in contact with the bedding, hay, poos, etc. Towel dry them as much as possible, and keep them out of drafts until they are completely air dried.