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Post by Bean on Jan 1, 2016 17:05:16 GMT
We recently watched a series seeing how a group of UK kids coped with the Chinese school system - longer school hours, higher expectations, more rote learning and less interaction/ practical application of acquired knowledge (which means you can pack more information in). Our kids achieved significantly better in the core subjects at teh end of the experiment, but their understanding of subjects and their creativity definitely suffered compared to the way they were usually taught. PLus their enjoyment of learning! I think the best approach can probably take elements from both!
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Post by 3piggles on Jan 1, 2016 17:34:54 GMT
I think the practical application and the enjoyment are very important. Learning by rote may give students the chance to answer all the test questions, but as you said, they don't know how to apply the information. Our test scores are compared to test scores from all the other countries, and we tend to not rate well in math and science. Yet some of the best mathematicians and scientists come from the US. Our education system moved very much toward teaching for testing, which may have improved our test scores, but it made the school year an endless parade of standardized tests, no way for teachers to help the students who were lagging behind, because once one set of tests was over, they had to train the kids for the next set of tests. In the cultures that have rote learning, there seems to be little attempt to help those who lag. Instead, they are cut out of the system early, so what they could have done had they gotten the help they needed, is never known. Some of the worlds leading authors, inventors, etc., had learning disabilities or were late bloomers who had a lot of trouble keeping up with the rest of the class. If they'd been sent off to the factories as teenagers, they never would have accomplished what they have. I hope our education system gets back to its roots, teaching all the students to understand and appreciate what they're taught. The No Child Left Behind program was finally discontinued, after it drove some of the best teachers out of teaching. There may be a light at the end of the tunnel.
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Post by bazookagoof on Jan 1, 2016 17:50:59 GMT
Bazookagoof, I'm just curious - is your daughter learning Chinese? Kids are often so much better at getting to grips with new languages! Her mother has taught her various words and phrases, and she can carry on a limited conversation. I hope she can pick up more as time passes, because she's learning Spanish at school and she would be tri-lingual if she can be fluent in them all. |
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Post by Bean on Jan 2, 2016 9:56:00 GMT
That would be great - it certainly opens up lots of opportunities for the future too. We have a few friends whose parents are from different countries and it's brilliant watching them switch effortlessly between languages as they speak to different people.
In our education system, we seem to be introducing more tests and then just teaching for those tests rather than a more rounded approach to education and learning - it's frustrating as it really narrows what the kids do, and often makes it less enjoyable for them. Home schooling is definitely on the increase as people opt out of wanting that for their kids when the world is such an exciting place to explore and learn about. Different approaches work for different kids, so for some the current system will work well, but the more pressure there is on schools to get results, the less time and resources they have to be flexible about how and what they teach and it's a shame as you end up not getting the best out of a lot of kids.
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Post by shades on Jan 2, 2016 12:41:06 GMT
Why do some Chinese speaking English pronounce R as L? Is there no R sound in Chinese? One of the most popular Chinese dishes in the US is fried rice, which many Chinese pronounce Fly Lice. The 'R' sound exists in Chinese ( www.uvm.edu/~chinese/pinyin.htm you can listen here if you've the desire ) but it's not the same as the English 'R'. Even so, it doesn't really cause any problems for Chinese speakers. Have you actually heard anyone say 'fly lice' or just on the TV? I'm guessing that the first generation immigrants were not Mandarin speakers but Cantonese speakers from south China and Hong Kong. If these immigrants had limited language skills, then it's quite feasible that their pronunciation was poor. They just got by in English. Most of the day they'd speak their native tongue. |
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Post by shades on Jan 2, 2016 13:15:34 GMT
bazookagoofI think you live in the US. If you don't mind me asking, which town/city do you live in?
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Post by bazookagoof on Jan 2, 2016 17:05:42 GMT
This video clip is very relevant to the discussion: Shades- I do live in the U.S., very close to Chicago, just not directly in the city but in the nearby suburbs.  |
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Post by 3piggles on Jan 3, 2016 17:32:55 GMT
I live in Nashua, New Hampshire, and yes, I've heard a Chinese person say fly lice. My exposure has been through Chinese restaurants in the Manchester and Nashua areas. I do know the restaurant owners bring family members over to the US from China, so there are those who have been here for a while, who undoubtedly speak English much better than those who have just arrived. For some reason, those who don't speak English very well often answer the phones and take the take-out orders, which is how I first heard it. I've heard it quite a few time, and contrary to that video clip, they don't have a D on the end of Fly. It doesn't bother me, and they are speaking English far better than I will ever speak any Chinese. I just wondered of that sound didn't exist, which made it a difficult sound for them to master.
According to the pronunciations in that audio, R is pronounced more like j. I can't make the sounds with my written words, but our R is pronounced ruh, reh, rah, etc. Theirs is more like a soft j, not Jack, which is hard, but a softer J. That could make it a hard sound for them to get, which would explain why they learn the pronunciations of other sounds much more quickly.
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Post by shades on Jan 4, 2016 5:36:32 GMT
I've still never heard a Mandarin speaker say 'fly lice'; that's why I'm inclined to think it's a problem specific to Cantonese speakers. Time to ask some Cantonese-speaking friends to order lunch in English |
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Post by shades on Jan 4, 2016 6:35:54 GMT
We recently watched a series seeing how a group of UK kids coped with the Chinese school system - longer school hours, higher expectations, more rote learning and less interaction/ practical application of acquired knowledge (which means you can pack more information in). Our kids achieved significantly better in the core subjects at teh end of the experiment, but their understanding of subjects and their creativity definitely suffered compared to the way they were usually taught. PLus their enjoyment of learning! I think the best approach can probably take elements from both! I saw this show. It was a hot discussion topic on Chinese social media. I'm not surprised the experiment failed. If I understood correctly, this was one of the best schools; but the attitude shown by the students was disappointing. I'm wondering whether they're just echoing the opinions of their parents and school management. I didn't see anyone embrace the alternative methods or the cultural aspects. That's a shame. |
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Post by shades on Jan 4, 2016 7:35:15 GMT
I've still never heard a Mandarin speaker say 'fly lice'; that's why I'm inclined to think it's a problem specific to Cantonese speakers. Time to ask some Cantonese-speaking friends to order lunch in English Quoting my own post, haha! Here goes.... In Cantonese there is no /r/ sound. So that makes consonant clusters with r (br, cr, fr, pr, etc) mighty difficult. Cantonese speakers will substitute the /r/ sound with /l/. That's why you hear 'fly lice'. They also have clipped consonants in Cantonese. That means that some sounds are stopped fairly abruptly at the end of words, whereas in English you'd have a puff of air. (eg sup, pat, suck). My guess is the /d/ sound in 'fried' is cut very short. |
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Post by Bean on Jan 4, 2016 9:15:28 GMT
Interesting you saw the show too. The attitude of the pupils was mortifying - I watched the first one with my kids and we were so embarrassed thinking those kids may have represented us to even a few teachers from another country!
I'm not sure that's typical of British kids in general - there are kids like that of course, and probably a lot more than you find in stricter educational systems. But it seemed to be the rigid style of teaching that many kids kicked against - even kids who usually got their heads down to work were being rude and rebelling. I think without the support of their regular teachers (the difference in behaviour when their usual teachers showed up was pretty marked) the Chinese teachers just lost more and more respect, and the kids went increasingly feral. Having never had their authority challenged, the Chinese teachers had no ideas of how to regain control so behaviour deteriorated rapidly just as it did in Lord of the Flies...
My recollection is that after they called the parents in and gave the Chinese teachers more support from regular staff, the kids got a kick up the bum and did apply themselves better in the last couple of weeks, hence the improved results at the end? But you're right that not much seemed to have been taken on board. Although I think it's much better to accept that different people learn in different ways (and at different rates) and will excel at different things, and also to ensure that what you teach has genuinely being understood rather than just parroted, there were elements of the Chinese approach to teaching that we could definitely benefit from.
Also, although the school may have been rated 'outstanding' by OFSTED, it's not the same as being one of the best schools in the country as decided by society and communities. I've never heard of the one in this programme, although I am aware of other schools with excellent reputations across the country (where I doubt you could get away with the sort of behaviour seen on this programme!).
Interesting about the speech/ pronunciation. I've never thought of myself as puffing air at the end of words haha!
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Post by 3piggles on Jan 4, 2016 15:27:22 GMT
I said a series of words, and we definitely do have a puff of air at the end of the word. Cool! I had a lot of fun going through the different sounds on that site you posted, Shades. Very informative. I couldn't think if it at the time, but the R sounds was more like the J in Jacques. I find it very interesting how, once put into English letters, the sounds from totally non English languages often have nothing to do with the sounds we make. Even just pronouncing Os in Spanish, which are pronounced without closing the lips around the sound, so more like the O in Off, was hard. Also, with my Boston accent, trilling my Rs is not happening I tend to substitute a combination R-L sound for the Spanish R. Bazookagoof, I'm glad you're daughter is learning lots of languages, and I hope your wife will really get her into conversational Chinese, even if it's only one dialect. The pay for translator job is high in the US, and the more languages, the higher the pay. Shades, good to know about the Cantonese. It makes sense that many of the speakers would be Cantonese, as that seems to be the favorite Chinese food in many areas. I have known many Chinese who didn't have much of an accent at all, but they were in some form of computer engineering, software or hardware, and well traveled, so I have no idea about their province of origin. I also think they may have spoken more slowly, since most Americans only speak English, and don't even speak that very well. I plan to spend a lot more time listening to the pronunciations on that site. Thanks |
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Post by bazookagoof on Jan 5, 2016 3:33:59 GMT
Bazookagoof, I'm glad you're daughter is learning lots of languages, and I hope your wife will really get her into conversational Chinese, even if it's only one dialect. The pay for translator job is high in the US, and the more languages, the higher the pay. I hope she can stick to it. Actually, I'm reminded of a girl I met about 20 years ago in a little laserdisc rental shop run by deaf Chinese people. Their daughter couldn't have been older than twelve, yet she was fluent in Mandarin, Sign Language and English! I watched her switch effortlessly between languages when dealing with Chinese customers, her parents and the occasional gui'zi'* like myself. *gui' zi' = American devil.  |
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Post by shades on Jan 5, 2016 3:47:50 GMT
I'm surprised you said 'guizi'. That's quite a strong insult.
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Post by bazookagoof on Jan 5, 2016 3:53:01 GMT
I'm surprised you said 'guizi'. That's quite a strong insult. My wife used to call me that all the time. Probably still does. |
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Post by 3piggles on Jan 5, 2016 22:18:40 GMT
Lol, we have some pretty strong insults, too My parents had a friend who spoke 11 languages, but of course, he didn't come from the US. It's almost an issue of pride for too many Americans not to be able to speak any language except English. The number of people I hear saying if someone wants to live in this country, they can learn to speak English. Only knowing one language is about as limiting as it gets. We are at the mercy of every non English speaking person in the world, no idea of they're plotting to attack us, or offering us a drink. It's stupid. I took five years of Spanish in school, and lost most of it not having anyone to talk to. I've been reading it all along, but I'm very conversationally challenged. I wish I'd lived where people spoke Spanish, and I could have kept up with it. |
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Post by bazookagoof on Jan 6, 2016 3:24:42 GMT
My younger brother has a good grasp of Spanish and knows some rudimentary Russian. I attempted Sign Language in college and every few years try to tackle Spanish. I'm woefully inadequate, except for the few times I've been able to lend a helping hand to people more fluent in Spanish than English: I recognize "gracias" (thank you), and I know to reply "di nada" (it is nothing) So far, I've never gotten any angry glares. I don't know why people are so reluctant to learn more languages. Knowledge, they say, is power. I keep trying, although I'm just not cut out for this sort of thing. |
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Post by shades on Jan 6, 2016 7:20:05 GMT
Is Spanish the only available language in American schools? When I was at secondary school, I was 'allocated' to French study. After the first two years languages were timetabled with sciences. You could choose one or the other but not both. Hence the lack of language skills in scientists The languages available were French, German, Spanish, Russian, and, if you were very clever, Latin. I doubt they teach Latin nowadays in your typical schools. Anyway I wasn't keen on chemistry, so choose German as my second language. I don't regret missing out on the periodic table |
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Post by Bean on Jan 6, 2016 9:24:28 GMT
When I was at school they did alternate years of French & German and French & Russian. Now it's usually French and Spanish. My son is very keen to learn German and only one (out of four) of the high schools we looked at teaches it, so hope he gets in there. Of course school isn't the only place you can learn, but it'd make it easier and they do a German trip too which he'd love.
My favourite German phrase (which we actually learned in a German speaking part of Switzerland) is sort of like a toast. If you're at the dinner table (for example) and wine is poured, before you take a drink, you must look each other in the eye, raise your glass and say 'Nur ein Schwein trinkt allein' which translates as 'only a pig drinks alone' - if you drink before doing that, you're a pig of course! My husband and I have kept that one up!
I think they should teach sign language in school as kids pick it up so quickly and it's actually a language you can use widely in this country, so is more likely to be kept up by those who don't travel. It'd make a major difference to so many people's lives if everyone could communicate in sign to a basic degree, and help curb the isolation a lot of older people feel when they lose their hearing.
Like others here, I've previously stopped being interested in learning languages when I wasn't actually using them - it can really affect your motivation.
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