Seffy
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Post by Seffy on Jan 23, 2021 5:40:00 GMT
We adopted a male guinea pig, Albert, about a month ago. He had been living outside, under a house. I don't know a whole lot about his background, but he appears to be maybe a year old.
The rescue's vet checked him over before we adopted him, and he has a lump under his leg that was determined to be non-cancerous. Nothing else remarkable: teeth looked good; a little on the hefty side at roughly 1.5kg. He does have some behavioral issues (nips if he feels threatened), but really is a sweet boy who loves attention and likes to be held, and I think he'll come around with patient handling. He was doing really well all through December and the first part of January.
Fast forward to last weekend, when he suddenly stopped eating his pellets, then stopped eating hay. At first I thought he was being picky (odd for him; he eats anything and everything) but then I noticed that he was trying to pick up pellets with his teeth but couldn't. I looked at his incisors and thought the bottom two looked a little long but not overly so and were nice and straight with no sharp edges. Took him to the vet this morning and she said she didn't really spot anything, either. She filed the bottom incisors down a little bit but they weren't too bad. Under light sedation she also looked at his back teeth. Molars looked good with no sharp points and no over-growth. Tongue was not entrapped.
This evening he's still having trouble with pellets. He can eat veggies with no problem, but can't seem to grab pellets or hay. He'll try to pick up a pellet, but it seems like he can't and drops it back into the bowl. I have been giving him Metacam in case there is some pain somewhere that we're not seeing, but it doesn't seem to make any difference. There is no drooling, but maybe a little more head movement than is normal when he chews. I'm out of ideas short of dental xrays to rule out some sort of jaw misalignment---but normally I'd attribute that to an injury of some sort, which he hasn't had since we've had him. He does have an underbite, but I think that's fairly normal in a guinea pig.
Has anyone else here ever encountered anything like this before?
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Post by Bean on Jan 23, 2021 8:22:44 GMT
Aww I'm sorry Albert's giving you cause for concern. I had a pig who was dropping food like that, although he was also drooling a bit. An exam showed nothing, but an x-ray revealed an abscess at the root of one of his back teeth. He had surgery to remove the tooth and clean out the abscess (he had a shunt in for some time after) and although his reluctance to eat did mean he had to have some spurs filed down too, he recovered well.
How's his weight? I hope it's remaining stable and that you can get to the bottom of the problem. I'll keep everything crossed, please keep us posted.
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Seffy
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Post by Seffy on Jan 23, 2021 14:02:32 GMT
Thank you, Bean. Do you, by any chance, have a copy of the x-ray that you could post here? I'd be curious to see what an abscess looks like via imaging. The vet who performed the surgery...how experienced was he/she in that type of procedure? Our vet is quite good and has done other surgeries on our guys over the years, but she's not an exotics vet and we have just been fortunate up until now to not have had much in the way of dental issues. I'm wondering if this is something she could do if it does turn out to be something like that. You mentioned slobbering, which I'm not seeing (yet). Was there any tenderness around the jaw line? He has dropped a couple of ounces over the past several days, but he was a pretty large pig to begin with.
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Post by Bean on Jan 24, 2021 8:44:08 GMT
Actually, thinking back, the dribbling wasn't immediate. At first the only symptom was dropping food. We took him to one vet who just clipped the front teeth and sent him away. Unsurprisingly he didn't get better, we were having to syringe feed him to keep his weight up and the drooling had started (I don't recall any tenderness, and there was certainly no visible swelling), so we searched out another vet recommended for guinea pigs. He gave him a good going over but said he looked fine (aside from the front teeth being too short...). However, he knew the symptoms were serious so sent us to another exotics vet in a different town who he thought could help us. This chap took x-rays and nailed it immediately. He said that while guinea pigs are generally very good at hiding illnesses, when it comes to dental/ mouth pain they are extraordinarily sensitive. That's something the lady at a local rescue also said - she said you can have rabbits with advanced dental disease - their teeth are massively overgrown and curling around their tongue and digging into their cheeks, but they carry on eating. A guinea pig can have a tiny sharp bit on a tooth that you can barely see, but it puts them off eating. I do have the x-rays, I've drawn an arrow to where it was on the side view, you can see a more dense white area. I was never quite as sure where it was on the top shot! Ziggy took a while to eat after, even with pain meds, so he did have to go in again and have some spurs filed down. All this time I was having to flush the abscess wound several times a day - he was right to keep it open as it carried on churning out pus for days, by which time the gum where the tooth had been removed had healed over, so it would have had nowhere to go. The vet was definitely at the top of his game in treating guinea pigs. He didn't give the impression that it was in any way a complicated problem, but he certainly knew his beans, so it's possible he just made it all look easy. It's so difficult isn't it, when you know something isn't right but can't find what it is. This was a stressful couple of weeks with Ziggy - I missed going home for Christmas for the first time since leaving home so I could nurse him and be near the vet! Perhaps if your vet doesn't feel confident identifying or treating any issues like this, she could recommend someone who could?
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Seffy
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Post by Seffy on Jan 24, 2021 14:16:03 GMT
Bean, this is hugely helpful. Thank you. Agree that I can't see anything from the top view, but the side view is a little more obvious and gives me a better idea of what we might need to look for (with your permission, I might share the photo with my vet).
I have access to an exotics vet, but they are more than an hour from here, and travel is not all that easy for me at the moment. If worse comes to worse, though, and my vet feels she is not up to the task, I don't see that I'll have much choice. But...I guess we'll cross that bridge if/when we come to it.
Thanks very much again!
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Post by Bean on Jan 25, 2021 9:41:22 GMT
I'm glad it's been useful, and of course you can share the photos if you think it might help. I just asked for copies as I was so fascinated by what their skulls look like.
It sounds like you have a great vet that you can trust to let you know what she does and doesn't feel comfortable with. While some vets may not be experts in guinea pig care, the ones who are thoughtful, check stuff and say when they're not sure are infinitely better than the ones that just plough on with best guesses and false confidence.
Hope Albert is doing okay and not losing any more weight.
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Seffy
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Post by Seffy on Jan 27, 2021 17:09:26 GMT
Well, this is a little frustrating. Nothing really showed up on the x-rays that looked out of the ordinary. The vet showed me the images, and it really looked pretty clean with nothing unusual like in your image. She zoomed in and showed that there are no pockets of infection and no clear sign of root elongation. At least to my untrained eye it did look like a normal guinea pig mouth.
She had originally said she would send the images off to a colleague for second opinion, but now she feels like there really isn't anything there concerning or unclear enough to really warrant it unless I just want her to. I really don't know. Albert's managing okay for now, maintaining his weight and seems otherwise healthy. Given his unusual background, I almost wonder if this could somehow be behavioral. This didn't start until a few days after I tried to pair him with one of our existing males (and I know there was no physical aggression, so it's not an injury). The timing just seems odd.
I asked the vet to have her office email me the images when they get a chance. I'd like to look at them a little more closely and maybe try to compare against yours and any online images I can find.
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Post by Bean on Jan 28, 2021 9:04:38 GMT
It's good nothing bad is showing up, but also frustrating, like you say. The wide chewing you described is also so typical of dental issues.
If you get photos, the medical forum at Guinea Lynx could be helpful - I haven't been there for years but there used to be quite a few people experienced in dental problems there.
If Albert's now maintaining his weight without supplementary feeding and is otherwise well, at least it gives you a chance to think things over.
My other thought is that maybe it could be something he's eating that he has trouble with for some reason? A texture that he's struggling to swallow or something? Is it constant throughout the day or does it seemingly come and go?
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Seffy
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Post by Seffy on Jan 28, 2021 15:58:12 GMT
It's just odd. Our vet is always so good about being interested, supportive and thorough. Thinking back about the day yesterday, she seemed a little dismissive. As if, "Well at least he's eating veggies..." It just sort of rubbed me the wrong way. It's not normal to have a guinea pig who otherwise seems happy and healthy to suddenly behave as though he can't eat pellets. Mainly what I see him doing, now, is sniffing and putting his incisors on top of a pellet or moving the pellet around but not grabbing at it. With most veggies, he seems fine (but then, I don't feed large chunks of anything). If I offer him a whole baby carrot, though, he grabs it in his front teeth and sort of tosses it around. I've heard of this happening with teeth that are too long or out of alignment, but neither appears to be the case here. I have tried several different pellets to see if it makes a difference: They normally get KMS timothy pellets, but I do keep two kinds of Oxbow as well as KMS alfalfa pellets on-hand in case. He doesn't seem interested (or able to eat) any of these, and he doesn't like the texture of them if I wet them down. What he *will* eat is an Oxbow Vitamin C tablet. Those are hay-based and quite hard, but if I add a little water to soften it and break it apart he eats it right up. It's odd that he'll eat that but not softened pellets (and forget about Critical Care: he absolutely hates the stuff). Unfortunately, GL has lost a lot of its more knowledgeable or engaged members over the years. One member in particular has been fairly helpful in the past regarding chin slings or how to contact Dr. Legendre for radiograh consultation, but these days she generally only comments on a thread if you email her to alert her. I suspect her advice to me would be to consider sending the images off to another vet for a second opinion, and that's likely what I will do if this doesn't resolve. Frustrating is right.
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Post by 3piggles on Jan 28, 2021 21:47:28 GMT
If he's not eating the pellets, try grinding them and adding a bit of Pedialyte or baby food, and see if he'll take that. He'll get the nutrients, but not the roughage he heeds.
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Seffy
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Post by Seffy on Jan 28, 2021 22:58:04 GMT
Yeah, I asked for the images and they emailed them to me (such as they are). I have always had a really good relationship with this vet over the years, so I don't really know what's going on. Everybody has a bad day, including vets, and I get that. Still, it's not like her to seem so unconcerned.
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Post by Bean on Jan 29, 2021 9:20:44 GMT
It sounds like you have a really good relationship with this vet, so it must have been disappointing she seemed dismissive that day. Like you say, you never know what else is going on in someone's life, but an attentive owner noticing a change like this could easily be the type of early warning sign of something, so should always be listened to. So for her not to seem interested is a blow. I hope it was just a one off.
Maybe if the problem doesn't resolve, she'd be more willing to consider getting a second opinion for you? If you can get a video of him failing to eat the pellets, that might help too (my vet loves a good video - we've done them for those issues that just suddenly disappear when you get them on the vet's table!).
Is he eating lots of hay? Once mine get to adulthood, I don't feed many pellets anyway - their diet is mainly hays with fresh veggies a couple of times a day. If he's getting the right nutrition and is maintaining his weight, then of course you still want to get to the bottom of what's happened to change things, but it takes the panic out of it.
That's a shame the medical forum at GL isn't so well manned these days. As we have a signpost to their medical forum (as we don't have one) can you recommend another forum with an active medical board? I remember you mentioned you were a mod on another, so thought you might know, but no worries if not.
Did the vet look at his cheeks and gums? I'm thinking maybe he has a sore patch/ ulcer, but you said the metacam didn't make any difference, which doesn't really support that theory.
Glad you have the images now.
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Seffy
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Post by Seffy on Feb 2, 2021 0:14:28 GMT
Thanks again. No word back yet on the x-rays. It's interesting, though. I don't know if he's just learning how to compensate or something in the mouth is slowly healing, but he is starting to nibble pellets again somewhat. No interest in them when I first put them in his bowl, but if I leave them in his bowl and check back a little while later, he has eaten a few of them. Some look like he has spit them back out, but several are gone.
I don't feed that many pellets to begin with, but it worried me when he wasn't eating them at all.
Fingers crossed that maybe this will eventually resolve on its own.
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Post by Bean on Feb 2, 2021 8:59:02 GMT
That's good that he's making moves in the right direction. It could just be that something is making it hard for him to bite down hard, and the source of that is resolving on its own. I certainly hope so. Fingers crossed for Albert!
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Post by 3piggles on Feb 2, 2021 19:42:43 GMT
I second Bean's comments. I do hope whatever is wrong is starting to correct itself. All digits crossed for Albert!
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Seffy
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Post by Seffy on Feb 5, 2021 12:53:48 GMT
Thanks again for all of the well-wishes. Albert has started drooling a bit, so there's definitely something amiss with his teeth. He manages pellets, albeit slowly, but is still having trouble with hay.
Our vet didn't really spot anything obvious on the x-rays, so I ended up sending them off last weekend for evaluation by an exotics group that specializes in dentistry. They emailed me back the other day to say that Albert's teeth are "badly overgrown." Odd that two vets (ours, and the one the rescue uses---admittedly, the latter was only a cursory check as part of his wellness exam) didn't see it during oral examination, but this other group is highly experienced and I trust their opinion based on what they saw on the images.
So, I'm taking Albert back to our vet next Thursday to have his back teeth planed. Jethro is going with him so that Dr. M. can compare length and angle of the molars.
Fingers crossed!
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Post by Bean on Feb 6, 2021 9:52:10 GMT
Gah, I'm sorry Albert's symptoms have worsened. It's good that you have now managed to identify the cause of his problems, but I'm sorry it took so long when all the signs were there and the x-ray that was declared fine actually showed the problem too.
I really hope that your doubts over the vet after she was a little offhand have been put aside and that they put everything into doing their absolute best for Albert. Hopefully having Jethro there to help show what's normal will ensure they do a careful and thorough job, and will also learn from having overlooked a serious issue.
I will have everything crossed next week. x
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Post by 3piggles on Feb 6, 2021 20:39:38 GMT
All digits crossed for the next exam to be a whole lot more thorough than the last one. Poor Albert is suffering, and really needs to be take seriously Please keep us posted.
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Seffy
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Post by Seffy on Feb 7, 2021 21:24:14 GMT
Thank you! Hoping we can get it figured out this time around.
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Post by 3piggles on Feb 7, 2021 21:30:26 GMT
Don't hesitate to push for further investigation. One vet I had said guinea pig, and rodent x-rays in general, are often very hard to read because so many body parts are pack in such tiny packages. He always did x-rays from several directions, to make sure he had all the information he could get, even if it wasn't a whole lot.
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