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Post by emyliine on Oct 1, 2018 1:34:54 GMT
Hi there! I don't know if it's relevant but I live in Northeastern USA. I "rescued" two baby guinea pigs from an acquaintance who had bought them at Petsmart and then had a family emergency a week later and needed to be rid of them. I'm not entirely sure of the condition she kept them in while they were with her or while they were in Petsmart, but I know she wasn't feeding them veggies and I'm pretty sure she was keeping them in a small-ish cage. She was told they were 3 weeks old when she got them, so I think they're a bit over a month now. I know-- too young, but they were litter mates and they seem to be doing well as long as they have each other. I just didn't want them to go back to the store or (as her mother was threatening) be let loose into the woods.
One is short-haired and a patchwork of white, peanut-butter colored, and light brown fur. His name is PB. The other is Abyssinian (I think?? he's got like a mohawk thing going on) and black and white, he's Jay.
I've had them for five days now. They're getting "Oxbow" young guinea pig pellets, "All Living Things" timothy hay, veggies (cilantro, green leaf lettuce, occasional carrot, I hope to stop by the store in a few days to pick up some red pepper and start feeding them that daily as I think it's the best source of vit c), and I got them a Midwest 8 sq. foot cage. I'm doing the best I can for them, and they are precious little nuggets, but I've never had guinea pigs, only cats, so I don't know a whole lot about them. I've done a lot of research and some of it is conflicting and/or vague.
I read that you could and should handle them from a young age to get them used to it. I've also seen people say you should leave them alone and let them decide when they're comfortable enough to come to you. I've been doing a bit of both, especially since they're new. I mostly leave them alone, but I also want to desensitize them to me. When I give them their heap of afternoon veggies I hand-feed a good amount to them. Jay is absolutely a foodie. He'll come out right away to eat from my hand. If food is involved, he quickly overcomes fear in order to eat. PB, despite being the bigger one, is suuuch a skittish piggy. He will eat from my hand, reluctantly, after Jay has been chomping away long enough that he gets curious / jealous. If I move AT ALL PB runs right back into his shelter. Jay is also the first to come out from hiding when I enter the room and sit next to their cage. PB will hide forever if he doesn't get jealous of Jay eating treats.
I pet them when I give them food. They don't seem to like it. I know to avoid petting their backsides so I just try to stroke their noses.
I also try to hold them once a day. I feel stuck between a rock and a hard place because I don't want to be scaring them by chasing them around to pick them up and make them hate me, but like I said I also want them to get comfortable being held and being around humans. Jay settles when I hold him, he'll sit for a couple minutes and I'll pet him, then he struggles and I put him back. He's mostly good through the whole process, though of course is not a fan of being picked up or put back. PB hates the whole process. He does everything in his power to escape when I pick him up. He won't be still in my lap, scrambling to get away the whole time. His eyes bulge out, he wheeks, tosses his head, etc, etc. I'm torn on whether I need to handle him MORE or LESS because of this. Even if it's bad to handle him and I stop, will he forgive me or is the first impression set forever now and he'll always think of me as the terrifying monster that takes him away from his brother and gently tortures him? It's selfish of me but I want them to be snuggly pigs who like me, not just "for show" pets that sit in a cage.
Another thing I've noticed is Jay sneezes a bit. Not... suuuper excessively. But at least once every time I'm in the room, which is usually for about fifteen minutes or so. Which to me means he is sneezing at least every twenty minutes, which doesn't seem good. I've researched URI and I don't think he has that, because everything else is fine. Clear eyes and nose, no weird breathing sounds, no lethargy, obviously he is eating just fine, he won't stop eating if he can help it, I think. Could the hay be too dusty? Is "All Living Things" hay a bad choice if I want to keep the dust down? I'm debating bringing them to the vet, since it may be a good idea in general after all they've been through, but it's a long ride and I'm worried about them just getting even more stressed about it. Their whole month has been them going to new scary places and being touched by new scary people and I feel bad.
Okay, sorry about the novel. I just have no context or experience with guinea pigs and I want to do right by them.
-Em
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Post by Bean on Oct 1, 2018 7:46:09 GMT
Hello and a warm welcome to Wheekers! It sounds to me like those pigs have landed on their feet with you - you're doing a great job! Firstly, are you 100% they're the same gender? It's a common mistake with new owners, so have a look at this website, and if in doubt, find a cavy savvy vet to check them out. When I first bring new pigs home, I tend to give them a couple of days of not pushing it in terms of handling them or picking them up - let them get used to the new sights and sounds first. But after that, it's good to give them the chance to get used to you. They're nervous creatures by nature (they have a lot of natural predators in the wild, so this instinct would have served them pretty well!) but the more confident they feel with you, the more relaxed they'll be - if you avoid contact because you're worried about stressing them out, they can actually become even more wary! Personalities vary, so you may find some retain that nervousness, whereas others are very chilled out. The bribery is a great idea - feeding them their veg by hand is a brilliant way to get them to associate you with good things! If they don't seem to like the actual process of being picked up, then sometimes using something (like a cavy cosy or little hidey) that you can wait for them to go into and then pick them up in that, can help. Once they've had to be chased round a few times, they seem to start running before you even try to catch them, so it can really help them relax. Until you have experience handling guinea pigs, it can be quite common for them to give people the run around, but everyone's happier when that pick up happens in a more chilled out way! If PB is a bit squirmy when he's out, just give him a little blanket to hide under, to help him feel safe, and maybe pick some fresh grass to treat him to while he's with you. Let him get used to you without being able to get himself worked up about anything else he can see or hear. I hear the occasional sneeze from one of my lot, but not much more. It's great the sneezer has no other signs of a URI, and you're right, Jay could be very sensitive to dust. With them being so young and having been moved a few times, it might be that a bit of stress has weakened his immune system a bit and made him more sensitive. I'd probably try a different bedding and see if that helped, and in the meantime just carry on keeping a close eye on him and his weight to make sure he's thriving. But honestly, I think you're doing a grand job, and I hope you carry on enjoying getting to know your little guys! PLease keep us posted with how they're getting on, and with any queries you have.
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Post by 3piggles on Oct 1, 2018 16:08:23 GMT
Hello and welcome I start holding the pigs from the very beginning, but I don't lug them around or anything, just hold them, let them do what they want to do, which is anything from vegging to sniffing all the smells around them, to going all over the place checking out everything. As Bean mentioned, guinea pigs are very low on the wild food chain, so instictively very wary of everything and anything that could be a predator. Obviously, we qualify because of our size, so they do need time to get used to us. That can take a year or more, so don't be upset if they don't run to greet you in a few months. They will also probably not warm up to you at the same rate, so one could become more friendly before the other. I think Midwest cages are the best store bought cages, and they can be connected/divided in ways that let you tailor them to your needs, space, etc. That's good, because guinea pig puberty starts around 2-3 months old, and last until 12-14 months old. During that time, males vie with each other for dominance, as do some sows. That competition can bully a shy pig into becoming a nervous wreck, which can be very costly with vet bills. It can also result in bloody confrontations that leave one or both pigs injured. So have a back up plan for creating two cages, should that happen. Midwest cages, though, as all of the store bought cages, have small doors/hatches where we can reach in and deal with the pigs. Put yourself in the pigs place. Instinct tells it everything is a predator. You reach in with one hand, like a predator coming right at them, try to grab the pig, usually around the midsection, and gently pull it out the door, with its feet and hands dangling. That's exactly what a predator would do. They may come to love being with you, but will never want to come out of the cage, if that's how it's done. Pigs want to be able to see your hand coming, and be given time to recognize it as yours. They also want hands and feet on something solid, so if you can't get a hand under them to provide solid ground, try using a conveyance. A cardboard box, cuddle cup, basket, anything that will hold two pigs, that will fit in the cage door, and that you can gently herd them into, will be great. Then just lift out the whole conveyance, and the pigs will become a lot less reluctant to come out of the cage. I've found conveyances that provide shelter, such as a cardboard box that isn't too open, works best. You can even fold a towel or wash cloth in the bottom, to make it more cushy for them, and put some veggie treats in to get their attention. As for the food, hay should be 80% of their diet, pellets 20%, and fruits/veggies served as treats only. It actually works well, as we can use the treats for all sorts of things, from luring them into a conveyance, to treating them after they get their nails clipped, to establishing treats routines. Mine always get a small treat when I enter the house from being outside. They get a bit more when we sit down for meals, so they get to have a meal with us, they get a treat when we're holding them, etc. I've found celery leaves or cutting carrots into very thin slices, work great, as they can be given individually, and the pigs think they're getting a whole lot when they're not I think you're off to a really great start, and the piggies are lucky to be with you. I just shudder at the thought of the poor babies being let go in the wild Enjoy them, do what you think works best with them, and you'll do just fine
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Post by emyliine on Oct 1, 2018 16:44:25 GMT
Thank you two for the help and encouragement! That website is far more helpful than the others I've seen. I'm pretty sure they're the same gender because neither of them show any mounting behavior at all, but I'll try to check. Nooo idea how I'll get them on their backs, I'm sure they find it a terrifying experience :/ And since they're so young I read that they should get unlimited pellets, especially since the pellets have alfalfa hay and they need the calcium that the timothy hay doesn't give them. I'm using Carefresh bedding, it's sort of soft and papery, in a smaller section of their cage and the bigger play area has an old towel for the moment until I find something better. I don't think it is dusty at all so that's why I suspect the hay. I got a huge amount of it so I don't want to get rid of it. I guess I'll try to shake off as much dust as I can into a trash can before giving it to them and see if that helps. I have an old air purifier too, do you think that would help?
They are quite small right now so I do pick them up by sort of scooting my hand under them and they sit in my palm, no dangling feet, but I'm sure that will become impossible when they grow. I'll have to get them a little shelter-bed, the ones I've seen look very cozy and I think PB especially would appreciate it, haha. Right now they just have those bottom-less store-bought shelters and a flimsy sort of cardboard tube. I do have all sorts of ideas for them but I have limited income right now so I want to save my extra money for a vet visit (in case it becomes necessary) rather than spend it all on amenities for them (as much as I want to spoil their cute butts.)
Thank you for the warm welcomes~~ ^^
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Post by 3piggles on Oct 1, 2018 16:58:02 GMT
You can't miss with cardboard, boxes, tubes, anything. Pigs love it, and since their teeth never stop growing, they need to chew a lot of things to keep their teeth worn down. I have those store bought plastic houses, pigloos we call them, but only use them for a change of scenery. The pigs will chew those, too, and that's okay. When pigs are as young as yours are supposed to be, they can have alfalfa, which is a legume, not a hay, and very high in natural sugars and other things that give them a lot of energy. It's important to stop all alfalfa by 2 months, and just do Timothy hay. You can also use any form of meadow hay, as timothy hay can be expensive. It's more important that they get a lot of hay, than that they get Timothy. Guinea pig digestive tract muscles are very weak, so they need to eat almost constantly, to force the food out the back end. That's why lots of hay is more important than a special type of hay. Timothy hay has the most nutrients for the least amount of hay, which is why it's recommended. I buy meadow hay from local farmers, by the bale, for about $6, keep it in a wheeled trash bin with some air holes drilled in it, and it stays good for months. I'm in New Hampshire, by the way, so we're both in the Northeast I think you're going to be a great piggy mom. You're definitely off to a great start Oh, do you wear perfume? If you do, that might make them sneeze. If you use a strong laundry detergent or fabric softener, try using a old coat/robe/etc. that wasn't washed in those scents, and is unscented, and see if they still sneeze. Between the Carefresh, they hay, the pellets and general house dust, they may just get a lot of dust up their noses, but if it is perfume, that test will let you know.
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Post by emyliine on Oct 1, 2018 20:02:44 GMT
I checked and they are both male. 3piggles, you said to only feed veggies as a treat, which is another contradicting statement I've been seeing. Either a website says to give veggies sparingly, or it says cavies require a cup of vegetables a day. Is there a reason you think veggies should be for treats only?
I don't wear perfume, and I think the towel is free of smell and dust, but we have a lot of cat hair and dust in the house in general so it's very likely. Maybe I'll turn the air freshener on in there and see if that helps.
I live in NH too! Do you recommend a vet? I live in Southern NH and the nearest exotic pet place charges $65 for check up on a single Guinea Pig. I saw someone say they get an exam for $30 so my price seems rather high but maybe the other person is just very lucky.
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Post by 3piggles on Oct 1, 2018 21:17:36 GMT
If you don't wear perfume, that's one cause of the sneezing eliminated. The dust could be the cause. There's not much you can do about dust. Guinea pigs shed enough that I don't think the cat hair will bother them. Honestly, since they have no other signs of a URI, I don't think it's necessary to do much. If you think the Carefresh might be the cause, use an old towel, table cloth or whatever you have to cover the Carefresh in the bottom of the cage, and see if that makes any difference. Again, they live very close to their bedding, so if there's some dust, they are tiny enough to be up close and personal with it Hay is a natural food for guinea pigs, and it contains nutrients and vitamins, including C. It also contains calcium, which they need, but which also causes stones in some pigs, so should be fed in moderation. Since every field is different, and every season is different, it's hard to calculate exactly how much of any nutrient is in the hay, including C and Calcium. Pellets are a controlled source of nutrients, including C. Oxbow is one of the best, and great for availability. Pellets are simply hay ground up with vitamins and nutrients added, and pressed into pellets. Since the pigs are getting C through the hay and the pellets, they really don't need a lot of C through veggies and fruits. Also, since they naturally eat grasses, their digestive systems aren't really suited to a lot of fresh vegetation, so giving them fresh fruits and veggies can give them diarrhea, or it can give them bloat, which is constipation with gas. Limited amounts of fresh fruits and veggies is fine, as treats, the same way we would eat desserts. We really don't process all the sugar in most desserts, very well, so it's not something we want to eat as a meal, but in small portions as a treat, it's okay for most of us. When they are in season, I give each pig a blueberry every day. Blueberries are super foods, with lots of antioxidants and things like that. I don't give them a huge one, just a regular one. I don't share my bananas with them, because I had one pig who loved banana, and even the tiny piece I gave him caused terrible bloat. Ooh, he could stink up a whole room. Oranges have a lot of C, but also a lot of acid, so they probably shouldn't have a piece of orange much bigger than your thumbnail, just as a guide. Certainly not a segment each. The acid will cause mouth sores, so again, less is more. Some eat tomatoes, which also have a lot of C and acid. I used to split a cherry tomato, so each got a piece of it, once a day. Unfortunately, they will eat everything you give them, that they like, so if you gave them a head of romaine lettuce, it would not last long enough to rot, and they would have terrible diarrhea. Think kids I'm in the Concord area, and accept for the most ridiculously expensive vet on Daniel Webster Highway, in Nashua, Dr. Phoenix, I haven't found a single decent guinea pig vet. There is a vet attached to Nevin's Farm in Methuen, Mass, who works on all of their animals, including guinea pigs. If any of mine got really sick, I think I might try to find out who there vet is, and go to Massachusetts. There is a highly touted exotics vet, who is also very reasonably priced, in Weare, Weare Animal Hospital. Every animal I've ever taken there died, and when I was told I had to give one of my pigs subQ fluids, and showed them I couldn't do it with my arthritic hands, they sent her home with me anyway, and told me to find someone who could do it. I really cannot recommend them. No exotics vets in the Concord area, at all, that I could find when I checked for exotics vets in my area. I gave them 50 miles, and the best they could do was Dr. Phoenix in Nashua. He is exorbitantly expensive If I find one, I will definitely let you know
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Post by Bean on Oct 2, 2018 8:15:58 GMT
Glad they are definitely both boys! And expanding their space is great, as adolescent boys really benefit from being able to have a little patch to call their own, and to be able to avoid anyone who's getting on their wick! People differ in their opinions on veg. Mine have always had veg twice a day - a small amount of a few different veg at each sitting. I believe it's the best way to get vitamin C and a variety of other nutrients (which should be in pellets, but if they've not been stored correctly at some point, may not be) and they absolutely love the variety in their diet which I think is a mighty good reason too! In the wild they'd eat fresh grasses (and as much as mine love hay, they go bananas when they go out onto the lawn!) so for me it's kind of keeping the fresh element in their diet too. Of course larger amounts of some veg can potentially cause a variety of symptoms, but you really can overthink these things - as long as you have a healthy pig and you give small amounts of a variety of veg, you're very unlikely to see any problems. This page on diet at Guinea Lynx is a great guide - lots of experienced owners have come together to put it together. You can see there which veggies do have the potential to cause issues in larger amounts. The information on that website is generally very good, so if you're looking up anything to do with health, it's a good first port of call.
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Post by bazookagoof on Oct 3, 2018 1:31:04 GMT
I was going to ask if you has little shelters for them, and I see that you do- I have two myself, and they love to have someplace to hide if they're not feeling sociable.
Also, make sure the bedding is unscented.
Piggies love to chew things, so feel free to get them a few chewable toys. Cardboard tubes are also good, and they don't cost any extra!
Don't feel bad about one of them not liking being held; both my piggies try and escape when it's cuddle time, and only one of them changes his mind once he's settled in and starts wheeking happily. The other one simply maintains a worried look on his face, hoping he'll be back in his cage soon.
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Post by jolovespiggies on Oct 3, 2018 7:42:44 GMT
A very warm welcome to Wheekers hunni.
Hugs JO xx
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Post by emyliine on Oct 3, 2018 18:04:50 GMT
Worrisome update! D:
Jay's breath makes a clicking/popping sound and he's less active from what I can tell. He is just hiding under the ramp connecting the cages. He still eats eagerly when I give him food, but I'm not sure if he's leaving his spot to eat or if PB is eating all the other food. Now I'm pretty sure this is an Upper Respiratory Infection, but I can't get him to a vet until Sunday. Do you think he could make it to Sunday if I make sure to hand feed him pellets at night? He's still eating, is that a good sign that it's still mild or does it not matter? Everywhere says cavies with URI go downhill quickly without any indication of how quickly or if there is a way to slow the illness.
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Post by emyliine on Oct 3, 2018 18:28:04 GMT
Nevermind-- the vet had an opening for today only so I'm leaving work early to bring Jay. It's only for one so I can't bring PB but PB seems to be doing just fine and is running around and was even popcorning earlier so he'll go later in the week. I'll let you all know what the vet says about Jay.
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Post by emyliine on Oct 3, 2018 22:36:04 GMT
Oooof, $160 e___e The vet said Jay does have some congestion, I couldn't pay for an x-ray but she said his heart sounded healthy and he's still eating and pooing so it's probably in mild stages still. She put him on Baytril though :C after everything I've heard about it I asked if that was appropriate for him since he's soo small and young, but she insisted it was fine at the dosage she prescribed. I didn't think to ask for Bactrim directly so :\ I really really hope it'll be okay. She also prescribed another antibiotic, Vibramycin Doxycycline. Each of these twice a day for two weeks and then a probiotic once a day too. I realize this isn't a medical forum so maybe I'll post something on Guinea Lynx and see other people's opinions but. So far so good, he was a trooper, very brave, and he even ate the pepper I gave him within five minutes of getting home so he's not too traumatized I hope. That might change when I start shoving strange medication down his throat
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Post by bazookagoof on Oct 3, 2018 23:56:11 GMT
Oooof, $160 e___e The vet said Jay does have some congestion, I couldn't pay for an x-ray but she said his heart sounded healthy and he's still eating and pooing so it's probably in mild stages still. She put him on Baytril though :C after everything I've heard about it I asked if that was appropriate for him since he's soo small and young, but she insisted it was fine at the dosage she prescribed. I didn't think to ask for Bactrim directly so :\ I really really hope it'll be okay. She also prescribed another antibiotic, Vibramycin Doxycycline. Each of these twice a day for two weeks and then a probiotic once a day too. I realize this isn't a medical forum so maybe I'll post something on Guinea Lynx and see other people's opinions but. So far so good, he was a trooper, very brave, and he even ate the pepper I gave him within five minutes of getting home so he's not too traumatized I hope. That might change when I start shoving strange medication down his throat I had a guinea pig who actually loved to take his medicine- I had to administer it in a small syringe, and usually when I did this he would grab it with his mouth and hold on until he drained it dry. (For those who remember, this was Deo.)
On a related note, I remember another incident where the vet gave me a HUGE syringe for medicine. There was no way I could force it all down the piggie's throat, so instead I spread his medicine all over a piece of lettuce and he gobbled it up without incident. (If you get into a similar situation, I hope this helps.)
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Post by Bean on Oct 4, 2018 9:17:39 GMT
Oh no, sorry the breathing problems progressed, but glad you were able to get him to the vet so quickly as that could quite easily be the difference between him making it or not.
I'd say posting at GL is a very good idea. It's been a while since I dealt with a URI so my experiences will not only likely be misremembered, but any drug knowledge may be outdated too. It's a good sign they gave him a probiotic though, and very good news that he's still got a good appetite. Good luck with giving the meds and please keep us posted with how he's getting on - I will keep everything crossed.
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Post by 3piggles on Oct 4, 2018 18:56:09 GMT
All digits crossed for Jay to make a complete recovery. Catching a URI at the very beginning, before the runny nose and goopy eyes, is a good thing. Since he's on Baytril, you want to buy some Bene-bac at Petco. It's not very expensive. There are different types for different animals, so look in the small animals section for the right one. It's a probiotic powder. Just sprinkle it on their veggies, and let them eat it. It won't hurt PB. Keep an eye on Jay's poos. If they start getting really small, dry, or otherwise not normal, you may need to syringe feed him water or Pedialyte, or get some Critical Care from Oxbow, and feed him that. Just to let you know. If the Baytril doesn't cure the problem, it's possible he has allergies, which also explains the sneezing and popping. If so, over the counter meds work well, and don't break the bank the way prescription meds do. Also, if Jay won't take the Baytril, because it is horrible tasting stuff, try mixing it with Pedialyte, and see if he'll take it better that way. If you need .2ml of Baytril, get that in the syringe, then fill the rest of the syringe with Pedialyte. Good luck
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Post by emyliine on Oct 5, 2018 1:18:28 GMT
Jay does already seem to be doing better, he's more energetic, I saw him leave his "safety tent" and actually eat pellets and drink water and that's the first time I've seen him doing those things with my own eyes. Maybe it has more to do with him being more comfortable around me and he was just too scared before but... I'm counting it as a win.
Peabs is now my concern, as he's sneezing and has some nose drippings. But he acts fine otherwise; he eats a ton, runs around the play area, chews on everything, typical piggy stuff. I'm taking him to the vet this Sunday but I can't afford more meds so honestly I don't know what to do about that. Thoroughly wash the syringes after I give Jay his meds and give some to PB too?? That seems like a bad idea but again... better than nothing in my eyes.
EDIT;;
Here's a pic of them btw. PB is hiding behind Jay which is pretty typical, it's hard to get a good picture of him.
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Post by bazookagoof on Oct 5, 2018 1:36:12 GMT
Thanks for posting that- we like "pigtures" here very much.
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Post by Bean on Oct 5, 2018 7:58:59 GMT
Glad to hear Jay is looking a bit better. If PB is showing similar symptoms then I'd say getting some meds into him is just as important as Jay having them. Could you give your vet a quick call for advice, but my guess is (s)he would advise him going on the same program as Jay. I know they're expensive, so them both doing a full course could be pricey.
This is unfortunately an unavoidable aspect of having pets - with luck they're healthy, but if they do get ill, it can certainly hurt the pocket. Sadly guinea pigs bought from places like Petsmart do end up being sick more often because of the way they are bred and reared, so although that of course wasn't your call, it won't have helped. Some vets will let you pay in installments if that helps.
My computer is not currently showing me certain images for some reason, but I shall look forward to seeing your boys when I find out what the problem is!
Good luck with the nursing, it sounds like you're doing a great job and I really hope both boys are soon back to full health.
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Post by 3piggles on Oct 5, 2018 20:35:47 GMT
My computer isn't showing me any images, either, but hopefully the picture will appear soon I totally agree with Bean about getting some Baytril into PB, too. Baytril is dosed by weight, so weigh PB to make sure you don't overdose him. You also might run out of Baytril sooner dosing two pigs, than one, so if that happens, call the vet and ask for more. There is a time limit for Baytril, not sure exactly, but I think it's 10 or 14 days of taking it is one round of meds. I'm so glad Jay is showing such great improvement so quickly, and hope PB does, too
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