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Post by 3piggles on Feb 12, 2018 17:37:25 GMT
Recently, I've come across endless articles on English at the time of Shakespeare, or Early Modern English (EME). These discussions also include Original Pronunciation(OP), or how the words would have been pronounced back in Shakespeare's day. It turns out there is more EME spoken in the US than in any other English speaking country. There is also more OP in the US than in any other English speaking country. This led to some rather funny situations in US history The original pronunciation of words with R in them, would have pronounced the R. Fire would have been pronounced fi-er, rathan than the modern day fi-ya. The majority of Americans pronounce their Rs. Only New Englanders, especially those from Boston, say fi-ya. The general theory is that when people leave their ancestral homeland, they take the language and traditions of that time, with them, and they hold onto the language and traditions, because everything ahead of them is unknown and terrifying, while everything they left is known and comforting. This led to settlers from England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales, in the back mountain areas of the Ozarks and Applachians, to keep the EME their ancesters brought from the old country. Because these people are generally considered to be too ignorant and backward to know any better, the states where these people live tried to advertise them as our connection to Shakespearian England, where the language of that era was still spoken. It didn't work, but it was a good try According to some of the articles, Americans also still use EME grammar in a lot of cases, while Brits don't. One example is that a Brit would say, "I should have got that while I was out," while an American will say, "I should have gotten that while I was out." Shakespeare said gotten, not got. I actually came across all of this when I googled why some people say "I have a long ways to go," when it should be 'way.' It turns out the word 'wayes' was the common word to express a distance, back in Shakespeare's time. Americans have reduced it to 'ways.' So something should either be a long way off, or a long wayes off, but not a long ways off Anyway, since most of the people on Wheekers right now are Brits or Yanks, I thought it would be fun to compare some of the things we say differently. The other think noted in the articles is that, based on QE1's written documents, she spoke common English, not the posh English spoken by royals now. Back in EME time, there was no posh English, and everyone sounded and spoke the same way. I thought that was kind of cool!
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Post by Bean on Feb 13, 2018 9:23:53 GMT
This looks really interesting, but my time on here is up so I shall ready it properly later!
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Post by jolovespiggies on Feb 13, 2018 15:32:41 GMT
I always find other countries' names for things fascinating Piggles love and with the internet, the world has certainly shrunk and we are learning more every day.
Cookie - Biscuit
Hugs JO xx
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Post by 3piggles on Feb 13, 2018 16:44:46 GMT
Another aspect of the OME used in the US, versus in the UK, was the US pentiant for singularizing everything. Where's my keys, instead of Where are my keys. Keys obviously being plural.
Brits counter that by pluralizing all the singulars. The team were/are, the school were/are, the group, etc. All of those words are singlural. One team, one school, one group. It should be the team, school, group is/was, not are/were.
So we're doing the exact opposite of each other. Singularizing everything dates back to Shakespeare's time. Pluralizing everything is a modern UK thing.
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Post by Bean on Feb 14, 2018 9:27:10 GMT
That is all interesting, and that you lot have stuck closer to old Bill's ways than we have!
The BBC and other more reputable news organisations don't pluralise singulars, but I know what you mean! I think there are certain ways of saying things that people know aren't grammatically accurate, but in every day speech, a lot of people are used to another form or don't care. There are still a lot of sticklers who do though!
I was discussing this kind of thing with a group of friends recently - it started with the old few/ less debate! It was mostly in relation to whether kids should be corrected if they've picked up the incorrect form, or if we should just accept people have different ways of speaking (while still hoping they are aware which way is 'right', even if they don't choose to say it!). There were differing opinions!
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Post by 3piggles on Feb 14, 2018 16:00:01 GMT
I think children should be corrected, simply because they will enter adulthood misspeaking, and that could cost them job oportunities. I was taught to speak correctly, and I generally do, but I also speak colloquially, if that's what I think is more fitting at the time. Sort of editorial license. I can speak correctly. I just choose not to some times. An old Yankee expression is "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." I use that. I know it's terrible, but I use it. I just think it gives children an option they don't have, if they can't speak correctly when needed. I do, though, think there are good and bad ways to correct children. Hubby and daughter spoke very badly, because of the ADHD and dyslexia, but also because that's how their friends(and in hubby's case family) spoke. That's the language that was validated daily. However, it turns out they did listen, as I've caught them either correcting someone else, or changing from the wrong word to the right one, after a bit of thought. I used to just correct both of them. Then I started repeating what they said, but saying it correctly, working that into my response. They get the point, without feeling criticized. I corrected Peanut one time, and she corrected me back, saying I had it wrong, lol Jo, I marvel at how we got such different words for the same thing. Just between the British Isles and the US, we have jumper/pullover, car park/parking lot, and just about every food item has a different name. You have a must stronger French influence on your food names, than we do. There are also expressions that are really different. People I've known who traveled to the Isles said when they registered at their hotels, they were always asked if they wanted to be knocked up in the morning. In the US, knocked up means gotten pregnant, and waking someone is called a wake up call
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Post by jolovespiggies on Feb 14, 2018 16:28:24 GMT
We pluralise words here although it is not considered correct. Using can't instead of cannot for instance, but most of us do it. It is amazing how many examples there are it is true Piggles love but I think it is nice to know other peoples' names for things. I also believe in children being corrected Bean hunni otherwise when they are adults they will stand no chance at all.
Hugs JO xx
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Post by Bean on Feb 14, 2018 19:46:42 GMT
There are definitely ways of correcting someone without making them feel daft or frustrated because they were enjoying telling you something and you've just cut them off by pointing out a mistake that (to them) isn't an important part of their story!
I think it's also important to hang back when someone, of whatever age, knows full well what the correct way of saying something is, but just chooses to say something different. There's a point at which it's their choice, not them lacking knowledge, and spotting that definitely saves arguments!
It's harder with things like dyslexia and ADHD as you need to maintain the balance of not discouraging someone from expressing themselves by nit picking, while still helping them learn things that it's important for us to know.
Yes the other definition of knocked up made its way over here, so we don't use it to mean getting someone up much anymore - we used to though!
The one that always causes much hilarity over here is fanny - you say it meaning bum, but here it's a term used mostly by children for a girl's private parts, so references to fanny packs or falling over and landing on your fanny etc always cause much sniggering!
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Post by jolovespiggies on Feb 15, 2018 17:06:53 GMT
You are right Bean sweetie, some people just don't choose to talk correctly. When I lived in Stoke on Trent I had a number of friends who were highly qualified/had degrees etc and yet they still used local colloquialisms. I would never correct an adult when speaking and only a child if I thought it were really needed. I had to remind Tracey's little girl to say thank you when I gave her chocolate. Pleases and Thank yous I am very fussy about.
Hugs JO xx
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Post by Bean on Feb 16, 2018 7:48:41 GMT
I like to call out a cheery 'You're welcome!' if a kid doesn't say thanks when I've given them something - they look slightly confused for a moment and then it dawns on them and I get an 'Oh thanks...'.
I prefer that to the 'What do you say?!' of previous generations. I know quite a few people who will say that when they give a kid something, without even giving the kid a chance to say it spontaneously. So it irks me!
I agree though, basic manners are very important.
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Post by jolovespiggies on Feb 16, 2018 16:02:17 GMT
I know what you mean Bean hunni, I always give the kiddie the opportunity to say thank you before jumping on them. I tend to say What do we say" and then it dawns on them and I receive the required Thank you. I am very hot on manners.
Hugs Jo xx
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Post by 3piggles on Feb 16, 2018 19:19:43 GMT
Yes, dealing with learning disabilities is a completely different situation. Not only do the people need to be corrected, if speaking incorrectly is going to prevent them from getting what they want, but they first have to be broken of the old habit, which is extremely difficult. Hubby used to say coulda went and shoulda did, probably because he grew up around people who said those things, so they were common or normal. What was taught in school was uncommon, difficult to remember, hard to apply, so drop that and go with what he knows. That's fine, as children, but not as adults wanting good jobs that require them to be able to communicate, write, and make points in a minimum amount of time. Professional people say should have gone and could have done. I know Hubby had far better computer skills than a lot of the people who could out talk him, but because he had a limited command of the English language, he often wasn't recognized as having the level of skills he had, because he couldn't make his point as well or as quickly as someone else. It particularly bothered him when someone he knew would never have though of his idea, rephrased the idea and got credit for it, all because the other guy spoke English better. So I don't think children should ever be allowed to only speak in coloquialisms, or to mispronounce words. Children need to learn the correct version, and be able to use it. As adults, if they choose not to use it, that's their choice, not a shortcoming in their education. I don't correct adults, either. I feel, if they don't know any better by adulthood, there's little point in saying anything. I did used to correct my mother, though, as payback for all the times she corrected me. I would write letters home, and she'd send them back with all the mistakes marked in red pen. Motivated me to stop writing letters, not to pay more attention to what I was writing. I also correct hubby, as he's still trying to overcome his worst mistakes, and we've been working on them since 1978. Getting older, I also think, no matter how hard we've tried to speak correctly, I think we tend to slide back into a language that is comfortable to us. I agree about saying thank you, and I think you're way is best, Bean. It sounds as if you're responding to the thank you they didn't say, not making a point of them not saying it. I think "What do you say," is the most used way of reminding them to say thank you, and as small children, it may be the best way. Once they get into school, though, it's important for them to be motivated to remember to say thank you without any coaching, and saying you're welcome is a gentle reminder. Can't, which is a conjunction of cannot, isn't wrong, exactly. I think it depends on how erudite you want to appear to be, or need to appear to be. Saying can't, won't, isn't, aren't, etc., is a much faster way of communicating that point, and US society seems to be all about getting the most out of every minute, so conjunctions work great. 100 or more years ago, it was probably consider uneducated to use conjuntions, especially since the most often used one is ain't. A foreign friend once said she could always tell the Americans when she flew anywhere. They had their bags down from the overhead storage, and were lined up to deplane, before the plane even started its landing approach. Pretty much! Always in such a hurry. Then I flew to Halifax, NS once, and had to stop in Yarmouth, NS to go through customs. We all just sat on the plane, and the steward finally came in and say "You're Americans.You should be off the plane, through customs and back on the plane by now. Come on!" Yes, we are obnoxious that way! So we use conjunctions a lot. I'm really surprised we haven't adopted the British use of abbreviations for everything, as we could say twice as much in half the time, lol Another interesting little bit about the American English language is that, before the Civil War, all Americans sounded the same. There were accents, because we all came from different places in the UK, and from different social levels. When the south ceceded from the Union, confederates adopted the drawling way of speaking that is still associated with the southerners, as well as changing the ways of pronouncing certain words, all so they wouldn't be mistaken for Yankees. It was also partly a way of code talking, so anyone listening wouldn't understand them. Those ways of speaking stayed with southerners after the war ended, and in some cases became even more pronounced.
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Post by Bean on Feb 17, 2018 9:35:29 GMT
I see some adults giving stuff to kids and doing a stern raised eyebrow 'What do you saaaaay?!' before they've even let go of whatever it is to give the kid a clue about what they should be saying thank you for?! It means much more when it comes spontaneously, so I always give a bit of time for it to come.
I have a way that I speak with friends/ family and a way that I speak in more formal conversations. They're not drastically different really (although my daughter is good at spotting the switch!) but I just lose a few lazy habits and make sure I say pronounce properly! Especially when someone's from a different area, clear speaking makes it easier for us all to understand one another.
Funny about the luggage and Americans! People here always joke that you can spot Americans because they're always looking out for someone to sue! But sadly that seems to be catching on over here pretty well too.
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Post by 3piggles on Feb 17, 2018 17:49:29 GMT
The US is probably the lawsuit capital of the world. The saddest part is that law suits are often necessary to get anyone to listen, and to effect change. Everything is about money in the US, and lawsuits are the only way to get through to people. The number of huge lawsuits that proved the tobacco companies knew smoking caused lung cancer, but covered up the information, or that concussions caused life-altering brain problems in football players, and so much more, only got the attention they needed, when the courts awarded the victims billions of dollars in settlements. It's really sad that profits are so much more important than people, in this country I tend to speak correctly, simply because with the ADHD, I need to stay on one path. It can seem like a rut, but always doing the same things the same way makes it a whole lot easier to remember how to do those things, or to not get to a point where I can't cope with the results. For effect, once in a while, I use jargon or lingo, but not that often. One time, for my birthday, daughter taught Peanut to sing happy birthday to me. It was totally adorable, and when Peanut finished being all excited at seeing grammy and grampy, daughter had to remind her to sing the song. Daughter said, What do you say? What did we practice, and Peanut sang me a 3 year olds version of happy birthday So cute. I totally agree with giving them a chance to say thank you on their own, but we've gone from a society where children were expected to be perfect mini adults, to a society where parents hover over them and direct everything they do. We need some sanity in parenting.
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Post by jolovespiggies on Feb 17, 2018 17:57:58 GMT
I have found that many Italian Americans talk as Vic used to Piggles love. No wonder you stopped writing letters to your mum, she should have concentrated on a lovely letter from her daughter and boo-hoo to the rest. I don't know if I am right hunni but it seems to me that a lot of the English, Irish, Scottish settled in the south of your country whereas others tended to settle in the north.
I agree Bean sweetie, it is lovely when you don't have to prompt a kiddie to say thank you. My voice sounds dreadful at the moment, I have a permanent croak which will not go away. When I booked a repair for my washing machine I apologised to the chap I was speaking to. He said he didn't mind at all and people will pay to hear a voice like mine. He also told me to go to bed with a lemsip - cheeky twaddle lol! Yes, people are suing over every little thing here too.
Hugs JO xx
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Post by 3piggles on Feb 18, 2018 17:19:18 GMT
We definitely have some strange language patterns, and Italian Americans are right in the middle of it, lol. The typical (New) Jersey Shore accent, is a version of Italian American, but way off from anything from any other part of the country. They Rs out of THR words, so three becomes tree, and thruway become truway. They also have a strange way of combining several other accents to make theirs, and I can't even think of a way to write it so the phonetics would make sense. They also tend to sound ignorant, which is think in more the accent than a lack of education. People who want to make it in big business, from the Jersey Shore, have to drop that accent, or they'll always be though of as a low class gumba(mob enforcers, etc.) The strongest of the southern accents are also considered uneducated, as they are so far from how the words are pronounced by anyone else. For about 30 years, southerners working for national and international companies have been able to attend classes that teach them how to talk. Basically the same classes that teach broadcasters how to talk, with no accent at all. Southern businesses found the accent got in the way of selling their products out of their immediate area, and had to take action. I think it would be the same with the worst of the Boston accents, as they can be rather difficult to understand, and need to be softened. When you're trying to get a contract to sell your goods or services, having the customers interest stop at trying to decipher what you're saying, isn't very profitable. I've heard some words in British that would have to be changed, if that person were trying to sell goods or services to us. Pronouncing with as wiv, saying owt and nowt, and some others. Again, people who are trying to figure out what you're saying, aren't buying your product or service. I do find it a bit amazing that none of the English speaking countries actually speak the same language. Oh, it's in there, as the base language, but after that, forget it! Between your cold and extended cough, I'm not surprised you're hoarse. I hope you're drinking a lot to keep your throat coated I'm glad he was friends, and most people really are friendly. They're very patient, if you're really hesitant, too.
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Post by jolovespiggies on Feb 19, 2018 9:32:28 GMT
Yes that is true Piggles love, the American Italians are always portrayed to speak the same and basically seen as the quintessential mobster. It is also true about the southern accents, they are always seen as hillbillies with little or no education. There are certain accents that are looked down on although I think that it is nowhere near as bad as it was. Up until recently what was known as the BBC Accent was needed in all things to do with TV and radio but I am glad to say that all accents are accepted. The newscasters are still very well spoken but without that dreadful high pitched aristocratic whine. I still have my cough Piggle slove and I can't get rid of my husky voice. A friend didn't recognise me the other day when I phoned her, I had to say who I was. Hugs JO xx
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Post by shades on Feb 19, 2018 10:41:53 GMT
I wish I'd seen this thread earlier. Too much to go back over... except that it's quite easy to be misled.
Shakespeare lived in the 1500s and at that time English wasn't spoken in Scotland. It didn't start to become used until late 1600/early 1700s. Even then, it wouldn't have been widespread among the population. Gaelic and Scots would have been the norm. Burns' poetry from the latter part of the 1700s certainly wasn't written in English.
It's quite common for TV shows and the like to present a kind of false history when talking about the UK. As if it's one homogeneous block, whereas the reality is that each country has its own distinct history and characteristics. The UK we know today has only been around for about 300 years. Almost as young as the USA!
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Post by 3piggles on Feb 19, 2018 19:58:15 GMT
This was only about the English language, so no assumption that everyone spoke the same language. It was about how much English has changed in the British Isles, and how little it has changed in the US. The other member nations weren't included, per se, as the discussion was about royalty speaking the same as the common people, which has obviously changed a lot in England, and about how aspects of Early Modern English, what constituted the language in England during Shakespeare's time, and QE1's time, have changed or stayed the same, and where. Obviously, if you visit the US, you won't hear anyone speaking as Shakespeare did. What the documentary was saying is that you will hear a lot of words and phrases from Shakespeare's time, which you won't hear in the UK. Since EME started, the British Isles have changed greatly, which undoubtedly influenced the linguistic changes in the UK. Meanwhile, in the US, the language of the original settlers, early to late 1600s, has evolved very slowly, and much of it remains unchanged. The theory is that when a group leaves the ancestral home, their language and traditions stop evolving, because they are all that's known and familiar, so they are cherished. Meanwhile, back in the motherland, life is creating constant evolution of everything. Obviously, US language has also changed and evolved, as we added immigrants from so many places, but there are pockets where some Shakespearian English can still be heard, and there are accents that strongly mimic those of Shakespeare's time. We then went on to discuss some of the most obvious differences between British and American English, which is pretty interesting, as we've take such different routes, and in some cases opposite routes, in our linguistic evolution. You, Shades, have had an even more broadened experience with English through your travels to English and non-English speaking countries. Since the advent of the Internet, with forums and other ways of connecting with people around the world, I have no doubt both languages have added words we wouldn't have added otherwise, but we don't hear each other pronounce the words. We only talk in text. I've often wondered if I would be able to understand the people I talk to the most often, or if we'd both be constantly asking the other to repeat that, please
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