Getting an almost adult female into a group with a teenager

[amber89]

Hello all,

Our beloved Muffin, an adult female guinea pig, sadly died on Wednesday.
We still have at home an adult neutered boar (Pufu) and a female baby, close to be a teenager (Cupcake - she will be 4 months on the 10th of May).
The cage seems to empty with only two piggies and we, the humans, need a bit of happiness into our life. Loosing Muffin hit us very, very hard and we are hoping that adopting a third piggy and completing the herd might bring us some solace.

In Germany and Austria it is constantly said that teenagers need to live together with an adult of their own sex, so that they learn how to behave in a group and are not aggressive.
This would mean that we would have around 2 weeks to find an adult female guinea pig and manage a bonding.

We saw at the local shelter that they have a female, exact age is unknown, but she is younger than 1 year. They have her weight, and the guinea pig is now at aprox. 700g. They also said that she is "full-grown", whatever that might mean... My husband didn't thought to ask them what it means when he asked for details on the phone. We also don't know anything about her character and background, is she bossy, is she laid back, was she in a group before... We only know that she was thrown away like trash in a cardboard box together with 3 other piggies.

I know that when we picked up Muffin from the shelter she was at around 860g and she was already an adult (around 2-3 years). She continued putting on weight after we adopted her, reaching around 1kg before she got ill, 3 months later.

My questions are now:
Is it really that important that Cupcake has an adult female guinea pig to guide her through her teenage phase?
Would an almost-adult female piggy be sufficient?
Any tips regarding the introduction phase? Should we put all 3 of them on a neutral territory? How long should we keep them in adjacent cages, separated by a grill?

[Bean]

I've not heard the theory about sows needing an adult to guide them through their teenage years? I wouldn't move quickly on this because you think that's necessary, or that you need to do it right now or things won't go as well because Cupcake is a couple of weeks older. Your previous experience of bonding has shown you there are no guarantees, and that you need to be prepared to house pigs separately if they don't get on as well as hoped. So adopt because you feel it's the right time for you and your husband, and that you can manage if they don't get on.

Usually when people say 'adult' or 'fully grown' they mean they're about a year (or more), but as you say, rescues don't always have that information. And some guinea pigs are just much chunkier than others, so weight alone doesn't always give you too much information about age. I don't think you need to be too concerned about her age anyway, that tends to be more important when bonding males (when two teenagers together can be a recipe for disaster!).

Introducing in a large neutral area is the best idea - have lots of hideys and things to do in there. My favourite place for introductions is in the outdoor runs as the floor being made of exciting food (grass!) usually helps take the pressure off the meeting. It totally depends how it goes, but if a couple of sessions like that went well, I'd return them to the cage together (clean it out so no one has an especially dominant scent claim to the place!) and them monitor them closely.

If there were any behaviours that made me feel they needed more time, it could be a week or so of those sessions before I housed them together (although having adjacent cages will help them become more familiar with each other in between - provided they're not so keen to be together that they chew incessantly at whatever's separating them and drive you nuts!), but I've usually found that if it's going to work out, you can tell within a couple of days.

I'd definitely recommend having a period of quarantine for the new pig so you can make sure she's healthy before you introduce them.

Good luck with whatever you decide anyway, it sounds like you've got the guinea pig bug, and helping another guinea pig is a great tribute to Muffin.

[amber89]

Thanks Bean for the very detailed answer.

I always had the impression that the Germans do things a bit differently than the rest of the world LOL.
It is not only for females, teenage boars would also need an adult boar for guidance.

I have the impression that the previous bonding quasi-failed because little Cupcake was simply put into Muffin's and Pufu's cage without any prep time.

Unfortunately doing the introduction in grass is not really possible...we live in an apartment, but we will put plenty of tasty hay around the enclosure. The introduction will be done in our sleeping room, is the only neutral space in the house. lol

We need to have an honest talk with the shelter what are our options in case that the bonding fails.

Somehow, I small part of me feels like I am betraying Muffin, taking a new piggy so soon...like I am trying to replace her.
But the cage feels so empty with just 2 piggies in it. 3 piggies seems like the perfect amount for the space that we have.

And yes, I got the piggy bug. They are simply so sweet and silly. I had a good laugh this morning with Pufu and Cupcake during their morning zoomies.

[amber89]

So, I went yesterday at the shelter and picked up the female. We have named her Marshmallow ( she is white with just her face brown & black and a patch of brown hair on her bum). When she was staying scared in her fleece tunnel and could see only her face she looked soooo much like Muffin, bless her.

I also had a chat with her carers there. She went through a mandatory quarantine period at the shelter. Poor her, she already gave birth at least twice, her last babies were born at the shelter.

She seems to me that she is either very young or very skinny. I weighted her when I got home in the afternoon and she was at only 580g, which is just a little bit more than my Cupcake... I don't know what the shelter dreamed with 700g. Compared to my Cupcake she seems long and skinny. I will need to start pampering her.

For now she is separated from the other two. She can hear them, but she can't see them or smell them. I will let her like that for maybe 2-3 days to get used to her surroundings, before I will leave a grill divider between the two groups and only afterwards try an introduction on neutral ground.

She is very skittish, but I am happy that I saw her doing zoomies in the afternoon, with us being in the room. She also eats a bit when we are there, but we need to stay super still..the moment we move she darts into her house.

I will keep everyone posted with the progress.

[Bean]

Oh you've done it already - no flies on you! Congratulations on your new addition, I hope she settles in well. Zoomies definitely sound very promising!

Having litters while they're young can certainly slow down their own growth as all their energy is going into the babies. I'm sure she will fill out now her breeding days are behind her, but she could be older than she seems from her weight. And about the drop in weight - maybe that higher figure is from when she was pregnant!

Looking forward to hearing how it all goes!

By the way, I recognise the food names, but where did Pufu come from?

[amber89]

Yeah, we did it. We were scared that someone else would take Marshmallow before us. We either way had planned to take her together with another 3-months old female, which turned out to be her daughter for her (hopefully just) first litter, but she was adopted the day before. This is the only picture that we could get of Marshmallow so far. 

She is very curious about her surroundings and already tries to get a look into the nearby cage. The other two are also super curious about the new piggy. Tomorrow i will let them see and smell each other. I am burning with curiosity to see how this works out. 

Haha, everyone asks me about Pufu's name. 
Actually, his full name is Pufulete. I am Romanian and i really wanted a Romanian name for one of the piggies. Pufulete (pl Pufuleti) is a salty corn snack (www.parthenonfoods.com/products/gusto-romanian-corn-snack-pufuleti-85g?variant=1207560041). Initially i wanted Muffin to be called Pufulete, but the name is more fitting for a male and Pufu, with his short hair fits better. Muffin, with her long coat is more fluffy and made me think of a Muffin.
I find it actually really cool how the only boar has the name of a salty snack, while all the wives get named after sweet treats. 

[3piggles]

I had wondered about Pufu's name. That's really cool

So Marshmallow is home, in her space, and aware of the others. That's great I think Bean gave you very good advice on the intros, so I won't add to that. I hope the intros go really well, but don't be upset if they need more time, and don't hurry them. When you think Marshmallow has adjusted to her new home is a good time. Before that, it may be too much for her to adjust to a new home and new cage mates, all at the same time

[Bean]

Oh she's a cutie, and she does look very curious indeed!

Thanks for explaining Pufu's name - I love it! What made you move from Romania to Germany? (You don't have to answer that of course, I'm just curious - like Marshmallow!)

My son's studying German for his GCSEs and wants us to take a break there next year. Berlin, I think.

[amber89]

Actually, I am not in Germany, i moved to their neighbour, to Austria.

Initially i moved away for studying, but that was just an excuse that i told to my envious relatives. Only Mom and my brother knew that i actually simply wanted to move away from a country that is deeply corrupt. 

Austria was actually just by "accident"...a friend suggested me the country, i wasn't considering it. I was looking back then to move to Denmark or other nordic countries. UK and US were out of question, since i would need to pay an arm and a leg for studying there... Continental Europe has more acceptable student fees, if any.  

New picture of Marshmallow  

[3piggles]

I'm glad you found a good place, and a good life. It's sad that Romania is so corrupt. I've heard that on BBC news broadcasts, as the US doesn't cover things like that. Hopefully, at some time, there will be a citizens revolt, and the corrupt will be driven from office. You took a lot of chances, and succeeded. You should be proud of yourself

We in the US have more than our share of corruption, too. While most of it eventually gets routed out and prosecuted, places like New Orleans are known to be so corrupt, at every level of government, authorities don't even know where to start to stop it

We have corrupt criminal justice systems in places. A judge was just found guilty of 28 counts of illegally sending people to a private prison, in return for money. Our bible belt of states has a lot of corruption in their criminal justice systems, starting with white supremacy on police forces allowing police officers to arrest non-white people for crimes they don't arrest white people for.

We're working on it, slowly but surely. Romania isn't alone

[amber89]

Apr 29, 2019 14:46:02 GMT 3piggles said:

I'm glad you found a good place, and a good life. It's sad that Romania is so corrupt. I've heard that on BBC news broadcasts, as the US doesn't cover things like that. Hopefully, at some time, there will be a citizens revolt, and the corrupt will be driven from office. You took a lot of chances, and succeeded. You should be proud of yourself

We in the US have more than our share of corruption, too. While most of it eventually gets routed out and prosecuted, places like New Orleans are known to be so corrupt, at every level of government, authorities don't even know where to start to stop it

We have corrupt criminal justice systems in places. A judge was just found guilty of 28 counts of illegally sending people to a private prison, in return for money. Our bible belt of states has a lot of corruption in their criminal justice systems, starting with white supremacy on police forces allowing police officers to arrest non-white people for crimes they don't arrest white people for.

We're working on it, slowly but surely. Romania isn't alone

Of course, no country is perfect, I am aware of that. Austria has it's own problems, including the fact that it is the only country in the EU that has part of the governing coalition a far-right party.
Corruption is universal; the moment some people get power and money, they can't hold back and want more and more...even if that means abusing their position. 

I am not so much believing in Romania anymore. The corruption is systemic and runs too deep...That's why i left, because i had no hope anymore that anything will get better, or at least not in my lifetime, and i wanted my children to have a better and easier life than i had. The people are kept poor and uneducated, so that they are easier to be manipulated. The ones that want to achieve something in their life, leave the country, usually to never come back. 15% of the able bodied population left already and are contributing to the wealth of other countries. Probably because i was so determined to leave, i didn't find the moving as hard and traumatic as i was told that it will be. There were only two moments in my first year that were harsh. 
 
I have been hearing about some scandals in the USA. I am regularly reading the CNN, BBC and The Guardian. 
I am pretty sure that the USA will get to the root of the problem and will eradicate also the last pockets of corruption. 

Back to my piggies: 
I have today removed the separator and put a mesh so that they can have full interaction. 
There is a lot of chatting between Pufu and Marshmallow and a fair share of rumble strutting from Pufu.
What is worrying me though, is the teeth chattering from Marshmallow, but only from her side. I was reading that if teeth chattering is involved, then the bonding will fail and that females don't really change their mind about liking/not liking another piggy. After some time though, the teeth chattering stopped...so, I am having hopes.
Both of them are tying the chew the separator and both of them were even at the same time on their back paws.
Between the girls was only normal wheeking, no teeth involved. There was no ruble strutting from Marshmallow, but Cupcake was ruble strutting, to my surprise.
I will keep them with the mesh for some time and o serve them.

[Bean]

Aww Marshmallow is adorable! What distinctive markings she has.

I've seen quite a bit of teeth chattering with intros, most of which have been successful. I had one female who would do it if someone tried to pinch her vegetables! Although it can be a precursor to aggression, it can be just their way of saying 'I'm not sure about you and I'm keeping an eye on you!'. Letting them get used to each other through the divider with no rush to introduce them is a great idea.

It's a shame that Romania is in such bad shape politically, as people should be able to feel proud and hopeful of where they're from, even if they do end up moving. I'm glad you've settled well in Austria, and hope you get to see family and old friends as much as you feel like you want to.

A few years ago, although I would have appreciated why people moved countries to avoid political situations, it's not something I could have imagined ever doing myself. Not that things have been perfect here by any means, but it's only in the last few years that I've felt fed up enough with all the nonsense going on to entertain the idea that maybe it might be better living in another country where they organise themselves a bit better and have more forward-thinking approaches to modern issues. I don't think we'll move, but I'm certainly in a more disengaged state than I've been before. I wish we had a reset button!

[amber89]

The teeth chattering stopped completely, so as you said, it might have been because Marshmallow was unsure about Pufu. Now all of them are spending quite some time at the divider interacting with each other.
The divider will stay in place until Friday-Saturday, in part also because Saturday is the 'general cleaning' day for the cage and it would be much easier to have also the cage smelling neutral.

I have been in Austria for 7 years already and i have settled well. Unfortunately, as much as i like Vienna, we most likely will need to move somewhere else; the funding for research here is little and seems to be given only to some "special friends"...so again, corruption. I would like to see my Mum and brother more often, but luckily we leave in a era with skype, so this helps a lot. I usually see them once a year, mostly in summer.

I would also wish for a reset button!
Of course, there are people that cannot see themselves living in another country and that is perfectly fine. Building a new life in a new country is not something trivial. My own half-brother moved back to Romania with his whole family after 10 years in Canada.

[Bean]

That must have been a big change for them all, especially the kids if they'd grown up in Canada. I think it's great when people make massive decisions like that because they're the right thing for them to do anyway, even when they know it will be difficult, at least for a time. You only get one life!

Had you already learned some German (it is mainly German that's spoken there, right?) before you went to live in Austria, or did you get thrown in at the deep end? You said early on that your English might not be great as it wasn't your first language, but I think it's far better than a lot of native English speakers! I'd guess that if you're in the academic world, then you'll be a lot more conscious of any tiny errors though.

[amber89]

Yes, i knew German already and i had been doing it for a long time, since pre-school. But i had a 10 years break of practising it, so it was really rusty.
They speak Austrian German...it's similar, but not the same...And the Austrians feel really offended if one uses the German words and not the Austrian ones.  Also, the dialects are killing me. My husband's grandma speaks only dialect and with a very strong accent and after so many years i still can't understand her. I need translations into the literary German.

Yeah, I am aware that i still do mostly grammar and spelling mistakes. We learn a lot of grammar in school, but no one can remember it, so in the end, everyone speaks it based on what sounds better fitting. My biggest issue is still with when to use which tense for the verbs. I am sure only about the Past Continuous and Present Continuous...the rest are a blur 

[3piggles]

I was an English whiz, when I was in school, back in the dark ages. Can't remember much of it now. I think it's been replaced with things more important to me know

You're English is great, and I mean that. I wish you could come to the US, and hear how badly most Americans speak English. You would feel so confident in your ability, and you'd be totally justified

Yes, there is corruption everywhere, and there are drawbacks everywhere. You're having trouble getting grant money, which is a problem in a lot of places, and it probably depends more on the reason for the grant, than anything else. It may seem as if only certain people get grants, but they may be the proven people. It's like trying to get a book published. If you're someone famous, or you've published before, you'll get a good contract from a good publisher. Otherwise, you could have written the greatest novel of all time, and no one is interested I hope you find the funding you need.

One thing I've learned about guinea pigs is that while they have a certain set of sounds they make, they have a lot of different body language. The same sound means different things, depending on the body language. My girls really get along well, except once a month when they get on each others nerves something wicked, for a couple of days. Yet, put in the right snack, or a new house, or something that one claims, and the teeth chattering start. It never amounts to anything. Maybe a chase around Pigloo City, but nothing else. They can use the exercise

[Bean]

My friend lived in Switzerland and needed to pass a German language exam to work there as a nurse. She did that, but then found most people spoke Swiss German which was actually quite different, and the dialects in some places (still German speaking parts - of course other languages are spoken in different areas of the country) were completely unrecognisable as a form of German to her. It was very hard for her, especially in a job where communication is massively important.

I had a stint teaching English (as an additional language) so know the headache of all the verb tenses! It's one thing knowing instinctively which form to use, and another entirely to be able to name and explain them all, and pick out which one's right! Throw in the fact that a lot of people use them incorrectly (so you can't just copy what you hear - although maybe German efficiency makes lazy language less common than in the UK?!) and all the accents and colloquialisms, and it's a minefield! I've never mastered learning another language to anything more than a very basic level, so I take my hat off to you for having (at least) two extra languages!

An Italian friend was studying English and was really interested in the difference between the 'correct' usage of a verb and how it actually tends to get used. We had some interesting chats about our language.

For example someone saying 'I'm liking cheese on toast' at a point when they're not actually eating it, which you would need to be for the correct use of present progressive - liking something at that point and for some time to come, but instead meaning they like it in general at the moment. 'I like cheese on toast' would be the correct form for that - simple present, but saying 'I'm liking' is becoming much more common.

My dad's learning German and he says that's a very complicated language to learn, so if my son moans about finding it hard, I should be sympathetic! I only did a year of it at school so am limited to things like... Ich habe sechs meerschweinchen. Wo ist das schloss? Ich habe hunger, wo ist das essen?

[3piggles]

I got the guinea pig part, lol

My sister took German in high school, and said there is high German and low German. While there technically isn't high English and low English, I think that's the basic difference for foreigners learning English. There is the Monarch's English, the proper English, and the English of everyday speakers. They are radically different. In the last episode of Vera we watched, all the people were referring to themselves as Us, instead of as Me. He came to see us. We didn't see anything, all meaning the single person talking. I think there are probably two versions of every language, and once regional and local dialects and colloquialisms are added, any language can be difficult to follow in real terms.

[Bean]

Haha! Yes, us is used instead of me with the natives round here - one person would ask 'Can you lend us a tenner?' or tell someone to 'Pass us the remote'! It's definitely not the royal 'we'... Minefield!

[Bean]

We've taken you a bit off topic (my fault, sorry!) but I wanted to wish you luck with any introductions you do this weekend! Let us know how it goes.