Fighting guinea pigs

[giofrankenstein]

Hi everyone! I'm a new cavy owner and new to the forums. I got a baby male guinea pig a little over a month ago and last week got another young male so he could have a friend. I did the introduction process I've read about - putting them on the couch together in neutral ground to get to know each other. They fought a little bit and did some normal dominance behavior, but overall I think it went well. Afterwards I put them in a neutral, freshly cleaned cage together. That was a week ago and they have been fine ever since. I haven't seen or heard them fight and no blood has been drawn. (Although I did just find a small scab on one of my guinea pigs, so I'm worried something may have happened while I wasn't around.) From what I've seen, there has been some rumblestrutting, teeth chattering, the occasional mount during floor time, but nothing more. They have two of everything and live in a large cage. They often huddle together and seem to like each other.

But tonight they fought twice - rolling around furiously in balls. I separated them quickly after each fight, and then put them back together (watching them closely) after some time. The second fight was about an hour ago. Since then there has been ALOT of teeth chattering, rumble strutting, mounting, yawning and stand offs, but no one-on-one fighting. Now they are sitting in their separate hidey houses and seem calm. I am really worried though! Do I need to separate them? I work full-time, so I'm worried that while I'm gone at work tomorrow this fighting will continue. What should I do?

[Pigjes]

How big is the cage?

I would give them a buddy bath and start the intro over.

[newpig]

It does sound like you are doing everything right and sometimes piggys (male or female) just don't bond. I would consider the cage size, do they have one each of food bowls, hideys, water bottles? Has anything else changed in the environment of their cage or your home in general?

Do you know what age the boys are? It can be hard to introduce young boys as when they hit puberty fall outs can occur.

[giofrankenstein]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. They are currently in two cages that are side-by-side, since I can't watch them while I'm at work. Tonight I will try bathing them and starting over again. Should I clean their cage out completely again before I reintroduce them to the cage?

I'm not totally sure on their ages...I think the youngest is probably about 2 and 1/2 months old and the "oldest" is probably 3 or 4 months old. They have two of everything - two dishes, two piles of hay, two hidey houses, two water bottles, etc. Their cage is 7.4 square feet. When they get older (and if they can still be together!!), I'll get them a bigger cage.

Last night they started fighting after they went back in their cages after floor time. During floor time they seemed fine. The only thing I can think of as far as changes is yesterday I brushed both of them for the first time (right before floor time) with a new brush. Maybe that changed their scent? But I used the same brush on both of them...so shouldn't they smell the same?

[giofrankenstein]

Sorry this sentence should read: Last night they started fighting after they went back in their cage (not cages) after floor time.

[3piggles]

Hello and welcome. www.guineapigcages.com has a chart of minimal cage sizes that give you an idea of how much space is enough space. I think those are minimal for sows, and for boars, I would add at least one more pigs worth of space, if not double the size to be safe. What we think is a huge cage may not seem as huge to them. It is their whole world.

I agree with doing the buddy bath. Yes, clean the cage to remove all scent, as they have been fighting so there is negative scent in there, not just them living there scent.

If they are fine during floor time but fight in the cage, the cage is too small. If you can put them in a bigger, even temporary enclosure such as you use for floor time, that might help.

They are also close enough in age to be starting puberty at the same time. That causes a lot of bickering and battles as they sort out dominance on their way to becoming adults. Think preteen brothers sharing a small bedroom.

Good luck!!!

[giofrankenstein]

Thank you for the advice. I will try expanding the cage. I have never bathed guinea pigs before...what should I expect? Should I do it in the sink? Bathtub? Do I blow dry them?

[cavyfan]

Sounds like you're doing everything right! Keeping them side by side is a good idea as they might resolve their differences.

I would suggest using a metal laundry sink for the bath, if you have one. I used to use a tub inside the shower, but the laundry sink is great as you don't have to worry about scratches, it's deep so they can't hop out, it's easy to adjust the temperature, and you can fit more than one pig in. If they're really dirty or covered in suds, you can also use the tap like a shower for them -- hold them up close to the tap nozzle so the water doesn't hit them hard -- my piggies seem to prefer this to being submerged in water, and it gives a very thorough rinsing.

Generally, be prepared for the fact that guinea pigs usually hate being bathed! They'll try to jump up, even in a deep tub where they'll just bounce off the side and splash back in. The idea of the buddy bath, as well as removing the smell, is to "traumatise" the piggies just a little so they bond through that. If you're not using a tub with sides at least 1.3 feet/40cm deep, you need to put in one pig at a time and hold them tightly, because they will leap out.

I bathe piggies in water that's lukewarm. I can't figure out if they have a preferred temperature as they fight equally hard against all bath temps. Water that's warm enough to be noticeably "heated", but nothing beyond that, is good.

Try to avoid getting water in their eyes, ears, nostrils and mouth, as this upsets them and might be bad for their health (if this happens accidentally, they seem to sneeze it out, but I think it could cause URI). You can use your fingers to splash a few drops up onto their cheeks and the top of their noses to clean those.

You probably don't need to blow dry them; if you do, use the "cool" setting. As they're living inside, make sure they are kept warm after bathing or they might catch a URI.

Good luck with the buddy bath! Hold on tight to those wet, squirmy piggies!

[3piggles]

I have used the kitchen sink and the bathtub, and prefer the tub so they can swim and play in the water. I put paver bricks in for an island, so the pigs can climb in and out of the water. I find the kitchen sink better for quick baths, especially if hte pig isn't one to constantly try to escape.

[giofrankenstein]

Thanks for the help! The bath was a success! In the short-term, at least. They were scared and squirming, but it wasn't nearly as difficult as I thought it would be. After the bath, I wrapped them in a towel together and sat them on the couch. They mostly just huddled together, but eventually began rumblestrutting and sniffing. After about an hour I put them into their completely cleaned out and reorganized cage. That was around 9:00 and they haven't fought yet (fingers crossed). There has been a lot of teeth chattering, rumblestrutting, showing teeth and nose-offs, but nothing more. I hope this is progress! Except this is exactly how they were a week ago when I introduced them for the first time...and it ended with two fights last night. We'll see. If there aren't any problems in the morning, I think I will keep them in their cage together tomorrow while I'm at work. I hope that is the right thing to do.

How long does it usually take for dominance to be settled? Will this dominant behavior die down if and when the dominant boar is determined - or do piggies constantly challenge who the boss is? I know that guinea pigs can get along well and suddenly turn on each other, but that aside, will there generally be a time when I know I'm in the clear and know that this dominance issue has (or has not) been settled? If they are acting the same way they are now in a week or two weeks or a month, etc. is that bad? Thank you everyone for you help. I really appreciate it. Wish me, Luigi and Gino luck!

[3piggles]

It sounds as if the buddy bath was a success. The idea is to make them share a negative so they will bond. Give it time to settle down. There is no special amount of time, but it should be mostly settled within a week. Still, expect flare ups now and again.

[Pigjes]

Glad it worked!!

Dominance issues can be settled fast, or take several months at worst.

[giofrankenstein]

Update: from what I've witnessed, they seem fine, but I just found a tiny slit in my youngest piggie's ear. Must have been from today. Is it safe to say that's considered "blood drawn?" I'm not sure what to do. Do they need to be permanently? I live in a small apartment, so I don't have enough room for two large cages side by side. I could look into adopting the new guy out, but that would make me so sad. Any advice?

[newpig]

I would continue to just monitor them closely. If there was a nipped ear but they have been fine since then that may have been the end of it. Hopefully they will have turned a corner. Perhaps you have two very strong personalities.

[giofrankenstein]

Ok thanks. I've decided to keep them in separate cages while I'm at work so I can monitor their time together. Is that good or is it counterproductive? Right now their cages are beside each other.

[Pigjes]

Their teeth are razor sharp and ear nips can happen. Just keep an eye on them for now.

[katieq]

Separating them and then putting them together when you are home is in my opinion counterproductive because every time they are reintroduced they will start the dominance battle again and this can be very stressful. Often young pigs going through puberty can be unpredictable and even if they get along great one day in a few weeks time they could be fighting again. I have a friend who has been trying to introduce one baby boar to two older boars for a few months now. She has recently resigned to waiting a few months until the youngest grows out of puberty. You may want to consider allowing them to live in separate cages next to each other for a few months before trying again, this will give them time to mature.

[3piggles]

I agree that it's counterproductive. Katieq is right. You restart the intro process each time. Intros take as long as they take, and have to be allowed to take that time even if it seems to us to take forever. The rule is to allow them to work out their differences unless they draw blood. Some of the dominance can seem very cruel to us, nipping butts, ears, etc., but it's normal to them.

If you can put them in one large cage with a divider until you can spend a weekend introducing them and watching for signs of blood drawn, that would be better. You can even swap sides to they spend time with each other's scent and get to leave their's, mixing the scents. But once you put them together, they need to stay together and work out their differences, unless they draw blood.

If you are keeping them in separate cages and allowing joint floor time, that's different. Floor time is neutral territory, not living space. As long as you don't put them together in a big cage, but allow them some joint time in a large, open, neutral area before returning them to their cages, that should be fine. Obviously, if they start fighting during floor time, too, then they need to be kept separated until you can devote adequate time to introductions.

[giofrankenstein]

Is an ear slit and a small scab on one of the piggies considered blood being drawn?

[giofrankenstein]

Also, everything you're all saying is making sense. It's what I assumed, but after I saw the ear slit I thought it may not be safe to leave them together while I'm at work. I have their cages up against each other length-wise right now. So my tentative plan is to give them floor time together each night, but put them back in separate cages until I can supervise them in the same cage together over a weekend...does that sound about right? When I finally put them back in the same cage together, should I go through the whole process again - bathe them together, clean out the cage completely & rearrange it, etc.? Or no since they will have been around each other, just not in the same cage since then?