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Post by bazookagoof on Nov 12, 2020 1:12:09 GMT
While I might agree many people can't get away from their racism, I personally don't have an issue with other races, and many of my friends feel similarly. I know four other couples off the top of my head who have interracial marriages. I enjoy other cultures, and couldn't care less if some writer tries to pass judgment on me. I'm far from perfect, but I certainly try.
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Post by Bean on Nov 12, 2020 9:29:06 GMT
Unfortunately, she's right, though the problem isn't only with white people, but with all people. I do agree that we tend to divide ourselves up wherever we are, and that it can be hard to put aside the baggage of centuries of one race/ religion/ culture etc abusing another, especially if you're in a persecuted minority. But I also think if you can't be judged on your intentions and behaviour in the here and now, what's the point? Her whole stance was that white people can only strive to be less awful than the white people that came before them - no criticism of or slurs on anyone else. She also states that if any non-white people are actively racist, then of course they are, because look what we did to them? How else could you expect them to behave when they're carrying generations of pain? I don't understand why you wouldn't just set out ways ALL people should behave towards one another, and call out anyone who falls short whether now or historically. Of course you understand that how people have been treated affects them - for example a child who suffers abuse is massively more likely to go on and abuse their own kids as an adult, as that's what they have learned. You may take that into account when working out how to deal with them. But you don't say it's okay for them to inflict harm on others. Anyway, it's a few books behind me now - I'm currently reading an entertaining but unremarkable thriller. This year has been a good one for reading!
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Post by 3piggles on Nov 13, 2020 1:59:52 GMT
I agree, and agree that she missed the point. I don't think confrontation changes anyone's mind from racism, bigotry or sexism. How to get through to racists, bigots and sexist is the real issue. Age old question.
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Post by Bean on Nov 13, 2020 9:42:03 GMT
If I think of all the people who have made me change my mind on anything political or moral, it's always the people who seem confident, calm and reasoned in their views - they're not angry you don't see things the same way and they're still interested in how people come to different viewpoints and talk about it respectfully and intelligently. You don't feel like they need you to feel the same way or you're a lost cause, you're just genuinely motivated to give things more thought.
We've always held that view on here in relation to guinea pig care. The forums that just bash people who don't do things the way they think is right seldom change many minds, they just make those people go elsewhere and seek likeminded people so they don't have to feel bad. More division.
I just generally try to speak to people as I'd like to be spoken to. I guess the self-flagellating vibe works for her, so she's probably thinking the same!
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Post by 3piggles on Nov 13, 2020 19:11:00 GMT
I also try to treat people as I'd like to be treated. One problem with the last 4 years of tRumps reign of terror, is that republicans made it extremely clear they didn't get a rats ass about what anyone else thought, felt or needed. They were in power, now, and no one was going to stand in their way. The fact they wanted to privatize Medicaid, Medicare and Social Security. I think Medicaid, which is for the poor, can be privatized, but Medicare is a program we've paid into our whole working lives, to provide medical insurance for retirees. Social Security is the pension plan we've paid into our whole working lives. Those are privately funded government agencies, not government funded agencies. Yet they don't stop trying. I wouldn't object, if private hedge funds and stock portfolios always succeeded far better than government ones do, but that's not the case. If anything, handling all that money would go to some republican's brother or uncle, who runs a hedge fund or went to prison for running a pyramid scheme. It never seems to change with republicans. If they can make a bad choice, they will make one Yes, I try to talk to people as I would want them to talk to me, but I listen. I found it extremely hard to even tolerate tRump supporters, who only talk, and never listen. They are preaching, no discussing or exchanging views. We have one down the street, and he tried to convince hubby to vote republican. Just as he did 4 years ago, he spouted Fox News fake news soundbites, and 'facts' that had totally been exposed as fake or even fraudulent. Hubby said he finally just dismissed the man, telling him he wasn't going to have this conversation. Too bad not to be able to talk to a neighbor, because he's so intent on destroying all of my civil and human rights, and a whole lot of his own. HE doesn't think the federal government should be spending money on old people. We're all going to die, anyway, yet that neighbor voted for HIM, anyway, despite being an old person? Baz, you are a nice guy. I can't imagine you talking down to anyone. It's just not the you I think I know Out and about today, I noticed pretty much everyone who had a sign or flag for HIM, still has them proudly displayed I also heard on the news this noon that republicans are slowly pulling away from HIM, telling news outlets they think the president elect HAS to be brought up to speed on all sensitive situations. HIS legal team withdrew the vote tally challenge in Pennsylvania. They didn't think there was any chance of winning. The rats are slowly jumping ship, but HE just won't let go. HE hasn't made a public comment in a week, but HE's had diarrhea of the tweets the whole time HE won't even face the public with his idiocy, so he's mouthing off in social media
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Post by bazookagoof on Nov 14, 2020 1:49:50 GMT
Baz, you are a nice guy. I can't imagine you talking down to anyone. It's just not the you I think I know Out and about today, I noticed pretty much everyone who had a sign or flag for HIM, still has them proudly displayed I also heard on the news this noon that republicans are slowly pulling away from HIM, telling news outlets they think the president elect HAS to be brought up to speed on all sensitive situations. HIS legal team withdrew the vote tally challenge in Pennsylvania. They didn't think there was any chance of winning. The rats are slowly jumping ship, but HE just won't let go. HE hasn't made a public comment in a week, but HE's had diarrhea of the tweets the whole time HE won't even face the public with his idiocy, so he's mouthing off in social media Muchos Gracias. By the way, think about how much money those fools spent on that soon-to-be worthless tRump merchandise! I actually looked on Amazon for an average price and found myself chuckling at the barely-literate reviews by tRumpers. In 2021, many of them will be hiding their red hats & flags if they have any shame.
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Post by bazookagoof on Nov 14, 2020 1:53:20 GMT
She also states that if any non-white people are actively racist, then of course they are, because look what we did to them? How else could you expect them to behave when they're carrying generations of pain? I don't understand why you wouldn't just set out ways ALL people should behave towards one another, and call out anyone who falls short whether now or historically. Does she bother to address the Rwandan genocide, with blacks attacking blacks? (Rhetorical question, really. I think her absolute thinking is cute. And when I say cute, I really mean hilariously pathetic.)
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Post by Bean on Nov 14, 2020 13:55:47 GMT
Apparently conflict/ discrimination that isn't specifically by whites towards non-whites is different because white people always feel superior to other races and have the power too.
There was a particularly bewildering chapter about 'white women's tears' which should never be shed around black people because a) White women always try to make everyone else's suffering about them. b) Black men have long suffered/ died because white women weep and make false allegations (definitely not contesting that) - it's a survival instinct for them to still try to stop white women crying ASAP and we shouldn't exploit it. c) By comforting a white woman, a black man will then alienate any black women present when they should be uniting against white people.
She did say some stuff I agree with too, but it just got buried in 'Whaaaat?!'. Anyway I feel better now I've ranted about it!
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Post by 3piggles on Nov 14, 2020 21:47:56 GMT
Again, she's basically right, but approached it all wrong. I think there was a time when the white womans tears issue was true, but that was a really long time ago. She seems to have some archaic ideas. Maybe it's still happening in some places, but no place I know. I've had some fun with the camera, lately, from socially distancing squirrels, to a cool seasonal change picture. I also made the mini waffles. This time I sprinkled the uncooked waffles with cinnamon sugar. They were literally mini waffles. Very good.
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Post by Bean on Nov 15, 2020 7:56:10 GMT
The sweeping generalisations she made about white people, and then specific ones for white men and white women - you wouldn't believe she was writing a book about the problems with perpetuating negative generalisations about groups of people...
That's a great spread of photos - the squirrel formation is most unusual, they almost look like they're politely waiting turns (while social distancing). The ones in my garden are total plonkers - if there are even two together, they're chasing each other round playfully, and never more so than if food is involved!
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Post by 3piggles on Nov 15, 2020 19:38:09 GMT
I have a feeling she wrote a lot of the book from her own experience, which can be really hard to realize, for people who aren't introspective. Ot would be interesting to talk with her, about that, about all of the nonwhite people who have ethnically cleansed other nonwhite people. Racism, bigotry and sexism exist in all races, creeds and cultures. Changing those minds is as difficult as making the disenfranchised feel included. Two totally big primate problems.
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Post by Bean on Nov 16, 2020 9:11:26 GMT
Her job is now apparently to deliver diversity training. I've seen and heard about training to raise awareness of race/ disability/ gender done well in the workplace - stuff that makes you think about the unconscious ways in which you behave and think that really could affect someone else and by extension groups of people. (I've also heard tales of awful training which has probably made matters worse.)
It's like the assumption that someone can't be racist because they have Asian friends or black people in their family, or that they can't discriminate on gender because they treat some women they know well. It's not just about not actively doing/ saying/ thinking negative stuff, but a mindfulness of other experiences and perspectives, and holding yourself and others accountable to meaningful standards of fairness.
She talks a lot about the anger and defensiveness she sees at her sessions. I'm not at all surprised and don't think eliciting that reaction is a necessary part of challenging a mindset - I think it's more to do with her.
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Post by Bean on Nov 16, 2020 11:10:35 GMT
I forgot to say, quite a few houses round here have their Christmas decorations already up which is pretty unusual - definitely a sign of how people are feeling after a year of covid restrictions !
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Post by bazookagoof on Nov 17, 2020 1:25:28 GMT
You won't see a single Christmas decoration around MY house until mid-December!!! It's usually bad enough to hear caroling on the radio in early November; I have a need to enjoy Thanksgiving as its own holiday without Christmas treading all over it.
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Post by Bean on Nov 17, 2020 8:06:23 GMT
Yes, we don't have that holiday to focus on first, but I'll still be waiting until December! I've let the kids run with the whole Christmas thing much earlier than normal this year, but there have to be limits! As many of the events that young families enjoy are cancelled, people are trying to think of ways to still make it a really special time. One idea running in a few local areas is the living advent calendar. Households sign up in advance and are given a number, and over the course of December, each house creates a festive window display featuring their number (and put up/ revealed on their date) - people can visit the new one each day or create a trail to walk round. It sounds fun - I was thinking of taking part in our local one but I'm not super arty so I'm hoping it fills up without me having to offer!
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Post by 3piggles on Nov 18, 2020 1:00:31 GMT
Psychologists have been on the news saying to use the happy aspects of holidays to lighten moods, give people something to look at, and generally have a positive focus. Back when we first went into shutdown, they suggested putting Christmas decorations back up, as they're pretty and cheerful.
I totally understand not starting Christmas before December, though we always set up the tree the day after Thanksgiving. We started that long before Black Friday became an entity, because we all had a long weekend off, and time to do it. It also gave daughter something to do to break up her time. We always had an artificial tree, and would let her "help" us decorate the tree. Between then and Christmas, we'd buy her cute little decorations for the tree, and help her hang them. It helped her get involved, and every year she looked forward to putting her decorations on the tree.
When I worked in retail, the endless Christmas muzak drove me bonkers after a while, plus the nastiness so many customers showed during the holiday was a downer.
Mardi Gras in New Orleans has been canceled. I don't know if the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade has been.
That living advent calendar sounds great. We have decoration tours we can drive, getting a map so we know where to go. We do it by car, but I guess, in the burbs, the routes can be walked. I hope plenty of people participate.
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Post by Bean on Nov 18, 2020 8:42:26 GMT
We usually have a couple of parks or stately homes that pimp themselves up with festive lights for events so people can gather and walk around. I wonder if anyone will set up a drive-through winter wonderland?!
I think for everyone's sanity, we need to focus on what we can do this Christmas rather than what we can't do - just make the most of what we do have. It's definitely going to be different - maybe it won't be as good for many people, but one mediocre Christmas is hardly the end of the world. Perhaps some people will find new ways of celebrating that they like more? Especially the introverts among us!
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Post by 3piggles on Nov 18, 2020 19:53:55 GMT
I totally agree. Hubby and I were debating why so many people seem unable to adapt at all, or are they unwilling to adapt at all? I know, from all of my depressions, it can be hard to adapt. I'm not the best adapter, and possibly one of the worst. I have to have a serious talk with myself, and point out this isn't the end of the world, it's an opportunity, not a negative. Find out what I can do to stay fit, to lose weight, to make healthy meals, to keep myself entertained, whatever. When all the businesses first closed, we heard so many people saying things like "the movie theater is closed? What am I supposed to do for entertainment?" or "The restaurants are closed? I don't cook. What am I supposed to eat?" Even if it's not the best option, frozen pizza, frozen meals, go to the supermarket and actually shop. There are whole sections of premade foods, so busy, working people can stop at the supermarket on their way home from work, buy a rotisserie chicken, a container of mashed potatoes or mac and cheese, a container of a variety of veggies, garlic bread, single serving cakes, pies, cupcakes, parfaits, you name it. Go to the freezer aisles, and there's everything from lasagna to Kung Pao Chicken, frozen pizza, frozen just about anything. All of it only needs to be zapped in the microwave or heated in the over. No cooking required. OMG! Get a grip, people!
It's as if they are in such ruts, they can't even imagine a way out. When the pool closed, I started walking. I think Hubby got bored, and started doing some of the walks with me. Otherwise, he got in his 250 steps most of the time. He started doing all sorts of yard work that had needed doing for quite a while. I started cooking all sorts of recipes I'd wanted to try for a while. We were busier than when we swam 3 days a week. It's doable, even for us oldies but goodies, even for the queen of depressions, even for people living in rural areas, etc. People need to look for what they can do, what can give them a good feeling, what can be fun, instead of whining about all they can't do. If we can't have Christmas with daughter and family, we'll get all the gifts ready early, drop off all of them for the family to open Christmas morning, and that's that. Nothing else we can do. I'd love to do the annual breakfast, but not if it means risking getting the virus. They won't get tested before they come up, and even getting a negative test doesn't mean they're negative when they come up. As Dr. Fauci said, you can get tested, and contract the virus walking out of the testing facility. The tests take days to complete, and so much can change by then. So we'll make the most of the day, whatever happens.
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Post by Bean on Nov 19, 2020 9:58:12 GMT
We're so much more connected than we were a few decades ago - that's a massive positive when we can't get together physically. Although I suppose that also makes it much easier to find ways to multiply your misery instead of just having a bit of a wallow before cracking on!
I do have so much sympathy for people who are genuinely struggling, and those in difficult situations that are made so much harder by services being shut and not being able to get their usual help and support. It can be really tough and there's going to be a huge cost to some people's physical and mental health. But I don't have much sympathy for people who simply feel entitled to do everything they want to do. They're probably the minority too, as most people I know are just getting on with things - the complainers just seem to make more noise!
Just doing my son a favour and trying to snap up a PS5 while he's at school (they're released over here today) but I don't fancy my chances!
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Post by 3piggles on Nov 20, 2020 21:17:49 GMT
Daughter and family would love a PS5! There seems to be a whole class(can't think of the word I want) of people who complain about everything they don't like, demand everything be to their liking, never make exceptions for others, never try to be any better or different. They are loud, and they are on social media, which makes it worse. None of my friends are like that, but we all know or have known someone who is. It also seems to cross all age groups, so I figure social media has brought these people out of the closet Yes, there are people who are really struggling, and the services they need have been compromised. I started donating monthly to the NH Food bank, because so many more people need help than have need it since the last recession. I donate $10/mo, for $120/year. I know it's not much, but we're on a fixed income, now, and can only do so much. I donate $10/mo to our public broadcasting system, to Habitat for Humanity-which builds houses for people who can afford to put in sweat equity, and pay the mortgage, but not pay big down payments. I also donate $10/mo to Live and Let Live Farm in the next town. I knew it was a rescue center for abused horses, years ago when I worked as a reporter. When a guinea pig rescue caught fire, LLLF took all the guinea pigs, so the owners of the rescue, who lost their grandson in the fire, could rebuild their lives and their rescue. I figure they do good works for animals, and I will support that. The people on a news commentary show we like to watch were discussing the need to stay home and not mingle this Thanksgiving. One of the people said she knew an engaged couple, who lived together. He is going to his family's house for Thanksgiving. She thinks traveling and mingling are bad, and is staying home. Another of the commentators said she might as well go anyway, as once he goes, he'll bring it all back to her. He said it was as if he attended a football game, took off his mask, did some celebrating, then went to the show studio, and shared everything he had just contracted, with all of his cohosts. He's right. My thought was, if the engaged man doesn't love the woman he's marrying enough to stay HOME with her, and honor her wish to be safe in this pandemic, then he's not ready to marry her. Maybe they should reconsider their engagement. Getting married means leaving your childhood home, and making a new life of your own, with spouse, children, etc. While we always want to stay connected, immediate family comes first. Not a good way to handle an engagement.
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